phil hellmuth... (warning wsop spoilers here...) |
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Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:36 am GMT by jonesyb
he gets some real grief does the lad.
his brilliance can not be denied though IMO.
check this out from this year:
http://cardplayer.com/players/results/Phil_Hellmuth_Jr./1356
6 cashes... 3 final tables and one bracelet so far. go on lad well done.
also joe hachem is showing he is gonna stick around too with some brilliant finishes this year too.
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Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:05 am GMT by UrAteUp
yeah but Helmuth will always be best known for his blowups and witty sayings rather then his skills.... 
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:29 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| UrAteUp wrote: | | yeah but Helmuth will always be best known for his blowups and witty sayings rather then his skills.... |
That is the sad truth. I could respect him so much more if he weren't such a prick, but I'll be damned if he isn't one of the best.
But I still maintain that this is the World Series of Poker, and Phil still hasn't shown anything better than marginal FT success in any event but Hold'em. IMHO, that makes Johnny's and Doyle's bracelets a little more respectable.
Posted Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:41 pm GMT by supafrey
the #1 profiting player is the best player - not the one who has 10 shiny bracelets.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:49 am GMT by Jefecaminador
So you're saying whoever wins the ME this year is the best ever? They will have won more than anyone else. That doesnt really make much sense.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:02 am GMT by supafrey
Tell that to his bank account.
And there are people that have made much, much more than 10 million dollars off of poker.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:04 am GMT by shorn7
All kidding aside, there is no question who the best player in the world is right now. It is Phil Ivey and it isn't even close. The guy has made more in side games in the past few years than any of us will ever see, and he is still the most feared tourny player out there.
Bracelets or no, if you polled all the top 100 players, Ivey woud win in a landslide.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:42 am GMT by supafrey
| shorn7 wrote: | All kidding aside, there is no question who the best player in the world is right now. It is Phil Ivey and it isn't even close. The guy has made more in side games in the past few years than any of us will ever see, and he is still the most feared tourny player out there.
Bracelets or no, if you polled all the top 100 players, Ivey woud win in a landslide. |
Ofcourse there's a question. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. 99% of personal bankrolls are kept secret and people really need to stop hypothesizing.
Poker players are worse than fat British housewives when it comes to savouring celebrity.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:21 pm GMT by jonesyb
| supafrey wrote: | | the #1 profiting player is the best player - not the one who has 10 shiny bracelets. |
that kinda wasnt my point... but i get what yer mean 
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:44 pm GMT by shorn7
No there is not. Ivey is the best all around player...period.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:47 pm GMT by supafrey
| shorn7 wrote: | | No there is not. Ivey is the best all around player...period. |
Please name the top 5 internet players and how much money they make per annum.
Then you may have an opinion.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:51 pm GMT by shorn7
They make less than $20 million per year, so I am still right. Not including all the endorsement income.
I bet if any one of them challenged Ivey heads up, he would kick the snot out of them.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:12 pm GMT by supafrey
Does anyone else think his opinion is irrelevant?
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:25 pm GMT by Dave B
Ivey gets my vote too.
The top internet players can rarely get into games that have the same stakes that Ivey plays for 8-14 hours/day.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:39 pm GMT by shorn7
Amen. Perhaps it is supa's opinion that is irrelevant? (hee hee)
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:41 pm GMT by supafrey
congratulations. your two votes change the bankrolls of the hundreds of thousands of players that you've never heard of nor would ever know if they were standing right in front of you. clearly your opinions are more valid than one that's merely claiming communal ignorance.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:58 pm GMT by Dave B
Where and what limits are these online heros playing?
Also, very, very few high stakes online games are available for 27, Omaha, stud, etc. When talking about the best POKER player, all games must be considered. How many online heros can compete in a $4000/$8000 or greater mixed game AND have to do it in person.
No knocks on online, but it is sterilized-stripped down poker.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:14 pm GMT by snoogins47
The fact that there are, at least by appearances, some number of players who regularly play in the big game, with Ivey, and haven't gone broke/actually make money, makes me think that if Ivey indeed IS the best poker player in the world, to say that it's "not even close" is probably a bit sketchy.
Regardless of the obvious quibbling over what 'best' means, what 'poker' means, the lovely variance factor, blah blah.. the information we have available to us to make that judgement is, at best, horribly inadequate.
...Not that I can think of anybody I'd put money on to beat Ivey heads up
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:47 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I hope everyone realizes that the differences in skill levels among most of the pros are not nearly as large as many make them out to be.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:32 pm GMT by supafrey
wait a second, snoo. you technically agreed with me.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:35 pm GMT by Hungry4Knowledge
"If it weren't luck involved I guess I would win every one of them." I agree. Hellmuth is the greatest, just littlebit too honest. He plays great. He often gets unlucky. He could have atleast 20 bracelet if his luck was on the same hight as some of the other tournementplayers...
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:55 pm GMT by Dave B
I dont think so. I think he makes great reads, but he is too predicable. The reason he gets upset is because it only take one missed read against a player being "creative" to break you.
Tight players get sucked out more-sure. But that doesnt necessarily make them unlucky.
I promise you Phil doesnt take any more bad beats than the odds dictate. He just loses more and it is newsworthy when he does.
Posted Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:15 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| Hungry4Knowledge wrote: | | "If it weren't luck involved I guess I would win every one of them." I agree. Hellmuth is the greatest, just littlebit too honest. He plays great. He often gets unlucky. He could have atleast 20 bracelet if his luck was on the same hight as some of the other tournementplayers... |
BS. No pro gets "lucky" or "unlucky" any more often than another.
You say Phil might have 20 bracelets if he didn't get unlucky. Yeah, sure. Johnny Moss and Doyle Brunson might have won the Big One 5 or 6 times a piece if they didn't get "unlucky." plus, Phil plays close to every event he can at the WSOP every year. Doyle Brunson and Johnny Chan play maybe 5 or 6 a piece. Also, don't forget Doyle and Johnny didn't play ANY events for much of the 90's, when Hellmuth was considered to be the premier pro. Ted Forrest barely played any years between 1993 (when he won 3 bracelets) and 2004 (where he won 2). So who knows how many he might have had?
It's pointless to think that Poker greatness is defined by a little gold bracelet or how many of them you have. Not to say Hellmuth isn't a fantastic tournament player, which he is, but there is nothing supernatural about it.
Posted Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:31 am GMT by Biowza
| Dave B wrote: | Where and what limits are these online heros playing?
Also, very, very few high stakes online games are available for 27, Omaha, stud, etc. When talking about the best POKER player, all games must be considered. How many online heros can compete in a $4000/$8000 or greater mixed game AND have to do it in person.
No knocks on online, but it is sterilized-stripped down poker. |
Amen.
Posted Fri Jul 28, 2006 2:33 am GMT by supafrey
Who the hell CARES what games they play?
OR how many shiny bracelets they have?
it's only about the $$$$$$
Posted Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:15 am GMT by BigJii
Hellmuth was very lucky in this year WSOP against Juha Helppi. That bracelet belongs to Juha.
Posted Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:44 am GMT by zinn0
| Big Dan T wrote: | | It's all about the money boys! |
Whoever guesses the movie gets a cookie.
Posted Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:06 am GMT by jonesyb
aaaanyway... helmuth and hachem have had a good run at the wsop this year.
fair play to em.
Posted Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:21 am GMT by UrAteUp
Oh brother...this sounds like one of those my dad can whoop your dads ass arguments. The point to this as Jonesy stated is that Helmuth is having a good WSOP. Good for him. I wouldn't call him the greatest poker player ever. Nor would I call Phil Ivey the best ever. If you truely want to see the best poker player ever just look back to who has won the most tournaments, money and over all has the best record. Then you have enough data to conclude who appears to be the best.
$$ for $$ though I have to say it most likely will point to Stu Unger. Shame he had to end a brilliant career.
Posted Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:04 pm GMT by mortaleclipse
I enjoy watching Phil. Now is he the best player in the world? There is only one man that knows how much he wins and loses in a year, and thats Phil himself. I kinda see what Supas saying with its whoever makes the most money, however none of us know how much each person makes.
Posted Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:54 am GMT by Geno
| supafrey wrote: | Who the hell CARES what games they play?
OR how many shiny bracelets they have?
it's only about the $$$$$$ |
As much as it's the money that pays the bills and not the bracelets, I'm pretty sure that 95% of pro poker players would tell you that the bracelet is worth more to them than the prize money.
Posted Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:02 am GMT by mindgame
If supa's right, and I'm inclined to think he might be, we will never really know who the best players are. And that would be because it would be foolish for them share that information.
The bracelet would have value to the pro if it brought him action he might not expect to get, which is also the case. Very wealthy people are willing to sit down with well-known champions even though they are completely outclassed. They want to say they play with those guys, and they are frequently less than honest about the outcome.
Posted Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:49 pm GMT by supafrey
| Geno wrote: | | supafrey wrote: | Who the hell CARES what games they play?
OR how many shiny bracelets they have?
it's only about the $$$$$$ |
As much as it's the money that pays the bills and not the bracelets, I'm pretty sure that 95% of pro poker players would tell you that the bracelet is worth more to them than the prize money. |
They wouldn't be saying that 10 years ago when they were hustling and diming their way to that ivory tower they now sit in.
Mindgame's thinking right, though. I'd love one of those bracelets, too. Heck, at my age I'd probably even get some sponsorship with my cute smile and charming wit alone.
Posted Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:16 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| supafrey wrote: | | I'd love one of those bracelets, too. Heck, at my age I'd probably even get some sponsorship with my cute smile and charming wit alone. |
 ...  .... ..no Geiko has that cute geeko. The poker sites have Jennifer Harmon and there is no way your as cute as Harmon.... . Perhaps trojan might sponsor you and use your face in commercials Supa...your the best reason I can think of for using birthcontrol....
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