Posted Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:06 am GMT by Oasis
So I got dealt these two hands and they pretty much made way for an early exit in an SnG. The first crippled me while the second tied the knot. Was this bad play, or something I could'nt have avoided?
Pocket Kings.
Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: CdnLynn (2390 in chips)
Seat 2: Lawsie (2200 in chips)
Seat 3: Pitrifax (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: Xaz84 (1480 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: menthamaster (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: Hip2baybee (1460 in chips)
Seat 8: BZ No Mercy (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: Oasis88 (1500 in chips)
Seat 10: micnic34 (1500 in chips)
Xaz84: posts small blind 10
menthamaster: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Oasis88  
Hip2baybee: folds
BZ No Mercy: folds
Oasis88: raises 40 to 60
micnic34: folds
CdnLynn: calls 60
Xaz84 has returned
Lawsie: calls 60
Pitrifax: folds
Xaz84: folds
menthamaster: folds
*** FLOP ***   
Oasis88: bets 80
CdnLynn: calls 80
Lawsie: folds
*** TURN *** 
Oasis88: bets 100
CdnLynn: calls 100
*** RIVER *** 
Oasis88: checks
CdnLynn: bets 120
Oasis88: calls 120
*** SHOW DOWN ***
CdnLynn: shows   (two pair, Aces and Eights)
Oasis88: mucks hand
CdnLynn collected 810 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 810 | Rake 0
Board
Seat 1: CdnLynn showed and won (810) with two pair, Aces and Eights
Seat 2: Lawsie folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Pitrifax (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Xaz84 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: menthamaster (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: Hip2baybee folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: BZ No Mercy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Oasis88 mucked
Seat 10: micnic34 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
And secondly, Big Slick.
Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: CdnLynn (3195 in chips)
Seat 2: Lawsie (2100 in chips)
Seat 3: Pitrifax (1440 in chips)
Seat 4: Xaz84 (1580 in chips)
Seat 6: menthamaster (1585 in chips)
Seat 7: Hip2baybee (1425 in chips)
Seat 8: BZ No Mercy (1455 in chips)
Seat 9: Oasis88 (990 in chips)
Seat 10: micnic34 (1230 in chips)
Oasis88: posts small blind 15
micnic34: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Oasis88  
CdnLynn: calls 30
Lawsie: folds
Pitrifax: calls 30
Xaz84: folds
menthamaster: folds
Hip2baybee: folds
BZ No Mercy: folds
Oasis88: raises 60 to 90
micnic34: folds
CdnLynn: calls 60
Pitrifax: calls 60
*** FLOP ***   
Oasis88: bets 120
CdnLynn: calls 120
Pitrifax: raises 1230 to 1350 and is all-in
Oasis88: calls 780 and is all-in
CdnLynn: folds
*** TURN *** 
*** RIVER *** 
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Oasis88: shows (a pair of Threes)
Pitrifax: shows   (two pair, Eights and Threes)
Pitrifax collected 2220 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2220 | Rake 0
Board
Seat 1: CdnLynn folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Lawsie folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Pitrifax showed and won (2220) with two pair, Eights and Threes
Seat 4: Xaz84 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: menthamaster folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Hip2baybee folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: BZ No Mercy (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Oasis88 (small blind) showed and lost with a pair of Threes
Seat 10: micnic34 (big blind) folded before Flop
I'm thinking a bigger preflop raise was due in both cases. However, your thoughts would be appreciated.
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Posted Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:30 am GMT by crack
In both hands raise more preflop, especially early in an sng, people will call raises with bad hands.
Hand 1: slow down on the turn. I know its a bitch when you have KK and an A flops, but sometimes you need to recognise when you are up against one. The way this was played, he shows he isn't too scared of an A and plays it like a bad ace, which is what had, the river check call is spewing chips here.
He probably puts you on an Ace and doesn't want to raise you in case yours is better, dumb to call down for him yeah but this is low level sngs and this sort of shit just happens.
Don't always be scared when an A flops, but you do need to recognise when its an A calling you down.
Hand 2, you need to fold this on the flop. Again, raise is more preflop. I don't mind the continuation bet, but when someone calls and then another guy goes all in, you are not beating anything at all and the only way you will is if you get lucky on the turn and/or river.
Posted Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:46 am GMT by Gunslinger
Calling an all-in on the flop with an unimproved AK, with no other reads, is usually a mistake.
Posted Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:50 am GMT by Oasis
| Quote: | | The way this was played, he shows he isn't too scared of an A and plays it like a bad ace, which is what had, the river check call is spewing chips here. |
Ok I pretty much came to conclusion that he was on the ace. But how would of I changed my move on the river there? I feel so weak when I check on the river after firing off two bets. I cringe when I do this and just wait until my opponent fires back at me. Guess I was just so curious as to what he had I called it regardless. Silly move, but damm it's hard to lay down high PPs.
I can see where I went wrong in the 2nd hand. If I completley miss the flop with Big Slick I need to learn to lay it down, the odds just aren't there that i'll hit anything on the next two cards I guess. Anyways, I felt that my continuation bet on this flop was okay. However, the reason why it probably didnt work is because my pre-flop raise wasnt big enough to eliminate the crappy hands that managed to fit with the raggedy flop. Am I correct in saying this? But calling the all in was very silly, I understand that now.
Cheers Crack.
p.s. Wish the flops for both of these hands were switched around. Then it would of been win-win! Haha :]
Posted Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:58 pm GMT by mooseontheloose
lol, yeh bigger raises preflop for sure! No way the guy in #2 comes in with that trash if your raise is big enough. Guy in #1 may have even laid down his hand for the right price. But remember, even if your raise is big you'll likely have at least one caller holding an A, so just be careful 
Posted Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:07 pm GMT by Jauron
I like the pre-flop for KK, no reason to win the blinds there. The flop bet was VERY weak, I'd have called you with an ace too. The following bets were so small he has to call you the entire time. Either throw a bet big enough to earn the pot of just give it up. Considering how little you had invested I'd probably choose to just give up.
AK, your preflop raise was far to small, you have two limpers behind you and the blinds to get through, there is too much money in the pot for anyone to fold that has money invested. 3x the BB + the money already in the pot is usually a good starting point. Force them to have a hand. You missed the flop after giving a price nobody could pass on and then refused to fold it...bad move.
AK is a good starting hand, but with multiples in the pot it's the perfect time to throw a very good sized raise out there and try to take down the dead money, if you get called you have options post flop.
Posted Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:07 pm GMT by Skribbles
Hand 1: Raise it to at least 100 pre-flop. Don't look at blind sizes early in SNGs to determine what you raise. When people have 1500 chips in front of them, 60 is nothing.
Hand 2: Again, raise more. Your continuation bet on the flop was a bit too small. Why did you call the all-in??? You have ace high. If you don't hit with AK, fold.
Posted Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:22 pm GMT by Oasis
Okay thankyou for your help thus far.
If I may, I might try and steer this discussion into a new direction.
How do I alter the size of my bet depending on the number of limpers pre-flop? And why exactly is it important? I have a fair idea, but clarrification would be fantastic. Obviously, if there are a few limpers then they have already commited some money to the pot, therefore is it appropriate to bump it up a little more to thin the field out while stealing their bets? I guess my main question is, how much of a bet is too much. Obviously, with high pocket pairs and AK I want to see the flop with some competition so that I can build the pot up. So basically, i'm looking for an ideal bet size(I know this may depend) that will get rid of the trash hands like one of the example above that outdrew me, but also keep in some competition so that I can build the pot.
Cheers
Posted Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:48 pm GMT by crack
When people have limped in then the are basically saying they want to see the flop.
There is more in the pot, so if you raise the standard amount, then they are getting better odds to call. So, with your hands that do not do well in multiway pots need to be raised higher in order to thin the field.
People say the standard is 3x the bb + 1bb per limper.
Posted Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:50 pm GMT by Skribbles
| crack wrote: |
People say the standard is 3x the bb + 1bb per limper. |
But in early stages of SNGs and MTTs go ALOT higher.
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