Posted Mon Apr 05, 2004 2:56 pm GMT by Leo
some people only play premium hands. now picture this; you're up against a pair of 5's. he raises X, and you know that this guy has a low pocket pair because he always play them like this. your hole-cards are 8-9, you fold. now if you instead see A-K, you call without a doubt. wouldn't 8-9 be the better hand to hold in this situation what with better chances for a straight?
so, should you really fold connectors?
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:07 pm GMT by ORGrinder
depends on the game and on the players. for me, on an low unsuited connector against what i thought was a pair... i would not play.
if it was late in the game, and it was a low suited connector, i'd call to see a flop depending on any pre-flop raises. on a low unsuited connector, late in the game, i may call a blind, but nothing more.
Posted Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:31 pm GMT by Leo
yeah. but isn't it wierd that you call with the high connectors and fold the low against the same hand when they are infact pretty much just as good.
Posted Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:56 pm GMT by cayouche
In a game, how do you know he has 5s...?? You don't. You can guess it's a pair, that I agree, but it could be 7s, 8s, 9s, maybe better. The reason you play A-K is that you not only hope for a straight, but you mainly play to get a pair. If you get a pair, you also have a huge kicker.
The odds you get a straight is not very high. When playing 8-9, if you flop a pair, you can still get beat in many ways...
I agree 100% with JKeats here. I would however maybe play them if they're suited and I'm in late position.
Posted Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:34 pm GMT by golddog
I'm with JKeats and cayouche. Connectors can be great, but you're not playing AK as connectors.
Position, raise size, your stack size, knowing the other player...
Also, don't forget if you flop a straight with 89, it might be the wrong end (to the Queen) and setting yourself up for danger, Will Robinson. With higher cards, you're flopping the top end.
Posted Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:17 pm GMT by Leo
i don't think you understand what i'm saying here. all i'm saying is that 8-9 is at least as good, or even better than, A-K if you're up against a low pair and it's funny how if you see someone call an all-in with A-K you're not surprised but if you see someone call with 8-9 you think he's insane. i myself wouldn't often call an all-in pre-flop with 8-9, you can never be sure what your opponent holds but still, it's interesting.
EDIT: i'm not talking about how you play when you play, note that this is the basic theory forum.
Posted Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:35 pm GMT by ORGrinder
you're sort of right. all things being equal... you're might be more likely to make the st8 with the 8-9 than with the AK... but if you made your str8 it's a decent hand but not a super one... especially if you catch the low end of the str8.
plus... if you're playing an unsuited connector and you put more than a single bet into the pot (to see your flop) you're not playing very smart. you don't have the flush draw (suited connector) and any pair you'd catch would be pretty pathetic. obivoulsy u could always catch the miricle hands... like flopping a set or something... but it's simply not good play (in my opinion) to try for this on a general basis (again... piont in game, position, opponents, etc... all make a difference).
AK on the other hand... even if you don't catch your str8 (which you likely wont) any pair you catch is pretty damn good. and if it's suited, you can pick up a nut flush.
so basically 8-9 = fair str8, weak pair; AK = great str8 great pair. and if you thow in the suited factor you have an weak flush (depending on what's on the board) vs. a nut flush.
jmho though.
i'm not a big fan of AK myself... unless it's suited. i've been taken a hit a number of times with the AK pocket.
Posted Mon Apr 05, 2004 6:04 pm GMT by Leo
is my original post really that vague(sp?).
i was using the exampel if you are up against a low pocket pair.
and calling it a monsterhand was just to get you interested in the thread 
it's funny that some (not you guys) people will argue that A-K is a better hand than 9-8 against a low pocket pair. that is sort of what this thread is about. it doesn't have anything to do with how you play.
also, A-K is imo a very over-rated hand.
Posted Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:04 pm GMT by ORGrinder
well ya... but it's not that simple though. yes... as far as outs... a 98 off suite has more outs against a pair lower than 8 than does an AK off suite.
i think what we were all saying is that you never really know what your opponent has until they turn their cards... you only can guess. so we were all just talking about general play. yes... occasionally if you are certain your opponent has a tiny pair like that... you might want to ride the 98 out... but generally speaking you'll lose more $$ in the long run if you play that hand vs if you play an AK.
that's all.
and i do agree with you. i also believe an AK is over rated... not that i don't play it strong when i get it. LOL.
Posted Tue Apr 06, 2004 12:48 am GMT by cayouche
| JKeats wrote: | | and i do agree with you. i also believe an AK is over rated... not that i don't play it strong when i get it. LOL. |
True, since it's only the 10th best starting hand according to this http://www.pokertop10.com/holdem-start-hands.html .
Some people might think it's the 2nd or 3rd best possible starting hand... but it's not...
Posted Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:26 am GMT by feverpa
that list that shows AKoff as only the 10th best starting hand is dead wrong.
A-J suited is not a better hand. The value of these hands come primarily from their ability to win unimproved, and secondarily from their ability to make top pair with best kicker... then a little from their ability to make a straight or a flush... and finally made a TINY bit better by their ability to make a straight flush...
let's break it down... A-J suited or not is a trouble hand... Jacks isn't a lock to end up top pair... and if you get your ace you could very well be up against A-K or A-Q..... the fact that it's suited doesn't make it any more valuable than Ax suited... because the Ace is the only card that matters if you have the flush...
A-K offsuit has a good chance of winning un improved with a strange flop and few people in the hand, it has a great chance of giving you top pair/top kicker... and it also can give you nut or nearly nut flush in two different suits if four come on the board... and it matches your Ace or King...
In my opinion, the reason so many people think A-K offsuit is over-rated is that they don't play it well after the flop.
Bet it aggressively before the flop, and if the flop misses you GET OUT!!!
I think people lose too much money hoping that King or Ace will come on the turn or the river... TJ Cloutier said it best... DON"T CHASE!!
A-K has been great for me..
you just have to know when to lay it down!
Posted Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:36 pm GMT by ORGrinder
i agree with your AK strat... except for the bet aggressively part before the flop.
this depends entirely on the game. if you're playing at a lower limit table... you can bet aggrssively and you might win... but since ther other players at the table are most always gonna call preflop... especially if you have a habbit of coming in aggressively preflop... you're gonna lose big often on the flop when you don't hit.
i'm not saying your strat is wrong... just that it's not ALWAYS the right play to come in aggresive with an AK... especially and AKo preflop. it all depends on the table action.
Posted Sun Apr 18, 2004 5:34 am GMT by boden11
it seems to be correct that with 2 overcards to the pocket pair connectors (8-9) are the favorite, but AKoff is still the %'age winner to even 8-9suited vs low pocket pairs. u're almost neck and neck w/AK if u have 8-9s and the AK *and* pocket pair don't have any of ur suit...shrug. in any case tho, 8-9 is about even with the pocket pair when offsuit and has a little edge when suited. run the odds again with 4 people and someone with 8 or 9 and a better kicker, AK and the pocket pair and you're drawing nearly dead.
Posted Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:52 pm GMT by Ninja
I tried out this theory today...here are the results...(BTW I put him on a low pocket pair)
Hand #1515127-55 at Wed445pmA-025 (No Limit tournament Hold'em)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 28/Apr/04 17:40:49
littletoe is at seat 0 with 1290.
Ed1255 is at seat 1 with 2940.
unmoderated is at seat 2 with 3230.
Tony Rules20 is at seat 3 with 3355.
TexasHoldEm19 is at seat 4 with 5530.
nazco is at seat 5 with 525.
samiam22 is at seat 6 with 715.
showmomojo is at seat 7 with 9005.
bear7785 is at seat 8 with 1460.
rk1268 is at seat 9 with 4960.
The button is at seat 9.
littletoe posts the small blind of 30.
Ed1255 posts the big blind of 60.
littletoe: -- --
Ed1255: -- --
unmoderated: -- --
Tony Rules20: -- --
TexasHoldEm19: 8s 9s
nazco: -- --
samiam22: -- --
showmomojo: -- --
bear7785: -- --
rk1268: -- --
Pre-flop:
unmoderated calls. Tony Rules20 calls.
TexasHoldEm19 calls. nazco goes all-in for 525.
samiam22 folds. showmomojo folds. bear7785 folds.
rk1268 folds. littletoe folds. Ed1255 folds.
unmoderated folds. Tony Rules20 folds.
TexasHoldEm19 calls.
Tournament all-in showdown -- players show:
TexasHoldEm19 shows 8s 9s.
nazco shows 7h 7s.
Flop (board: Qs Th Js):
(no action in this round)
Turn (board: Qs Th Js Jc):
(no action in this round)
River (board: Qs Th Js Jc Qc):
(no action in this round)
Showdown:
TexasHoldEm19 has 8s 9s Qs Th Js: straight, queen high.
nazco has Qs Th Js Jc Qc: two pair, queens and jacks.
Hand #1515127-55 Summary:
No rake is taken for this hand.
TexasHoldEm19 wins 1260 with straight, queen high.
nazco is eliminated.
----------------------------------------------------------------
|
|
