no hand/calling bets with intention to bluff/steal |
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Posted Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:03 pm GMT by efram
I'm wondering how many of you might do this, or what you think of it.
There are times when I'm in a pot and I call raises purely on the chance I can steal on later streets on a bluff.
For example, 3 limpers, I have position. Flops is JJ6, rainbow. EP bets 1/2 pot, 2nd position folds and I call with Ax.
My thinking here, I have 3 outs to the ace, and if he really hit a J for trips, would he bet it? most of the time not, sometimes yes which is why this does cost me money sometimes, other times it works.
So, I call his bets, with the intention of making a big raise/re-raise on the river to appear like I'm slowplaying the trip J's. Obviously, if he only had 2 pair with the J's and didn't have a J this bluff works, as I have used it this way. Sometimes he has the J and I lose the pot.
Seems alot of the time, when people hit their trips or sets, they check, rather than bet, to induce action. This bluff goes with this type of thinking.
Another example I have Adxh and limp, flop shows 2s5c9c. I check/call smaller bets thinking if my A hits Im good, but also with the intention that if another club hits I steal. Sometimes check/calling pot sized bets playing the flush draw, without the flush. If that club hits I bet it hard and take it down.
This is something I do occassionally just because I'm board and like to steal pots. Is these bad plays?
They do work sometimes, but also fail, when the flush doesn't hit or the better has the trips.
Spose thats why its called gambling.
I like to gamble sometimes.
I think its probly a hole in my game I need to plug but was curious if these types of plays have donk written all over them or worth a try sometimes.
thoughts?
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Posted Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:22 pm GMT by vyni
| efram wrote: | | My thinking here, I have 3 outs to the ace, and if he really hit a J for trips, would he bet it? most of the time not, sometimes yes which is why this does cost me money sometimes, other times it works. |
Assuming that a bet means another player missed is going to cost you a lot of money.
Posted Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:25 pm GMT by mooseontheloose
Well, I'm no expert but these sound like they'd work only if you had a read on someone, at least a betting pattern. Not all players play flops the same and in the long run you'll likely have donks calling you too often to make this profitable. I may be wrong, I'm sure it works when timed correctly, but I think timing is very important and limits the usefulness of the play.
Posted Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:37 pm GMT by crack
That's why I would fast play a lot of hands. In your JJ* example, I like to bet a J there quite a lot of the time.
Yeah slowplay induce a bet and all that, but if someone has a pair or overpair, they will probably think exactly what you did.
I prefer to do these moves in a tournament than cash, because there is not as much at stake in a cash game, and you may find that they will call with 2nd pair or overpair or whatever.
In tournaments you want to make these moves when you have a good sized stack, so you can bully the players and take control, but don't do these too often, because it can cost you a lot, especially if you don't know the player well or he is prone to calling without a strong hand.
Posted Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:55 am GMT by supafrey
In your own words, you do these plays because you're board sic. Does that sound like a good reason to do any play in poker - ever?
As an aside.. Preflop, I pretty much never do this. On certain boards I'll do it, but only in position.
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:38 pm GMT by suitedaces84
This is an excellent line vs. a decent player and probably a bad line otherwise. The flop is JJ6r (or something very uncoordinated). Most good players will realize this is the best place to steal and bluff a lot. They'll also give up frequently when you call the flop. This is because there aren't many hands you'll call the flop with and fold later in the hand for a reasonable price. There's also no chance you're peeling w/ a draw. All of these things make it right for them to bluff the flop and give up on the turn; and this makes it right for you to float the flop.
Calling the flop is okay vs. the right player, but if they fire again on the turn give up.
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:54 pm GMT by TheSalche
harrington talks about this in his 2nd book, he calls it: back alley mugging, as a form of bluffing
he uses it more for situations where you have a lower board, say jack high unconnected and then an ace or king comes on the turn and you use it as a scare card to get your opponent to fold
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:37 pm GMT by snoogins47
I like this line when an ace flops against a tight-predictable nit after he re-raises you preflop, too.
Basically, against players who play straightforwardly but lean toward the wuss side of life, calling the flop in position with nothing is often better than raising the flop in position with nothing. It's nice when you can invest X and find out if they have a hand, instead of investing X + Raise and praying that they don't. Easy to overdo it though.
Posted Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:30 am GMT by shorn7
I definitely do this against the right player and only when in position. But, I need to have seen this player table some hands to know how he bets his big one's and his misses. Against the right player, these plays can be very profitable.
Posted Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:38 pm GMT by efram
was this crazy/donkish, stupid, good, or did I get lucky, or ??
Do you think he had the 7?
Not sure but I was calling the entire time to bet big on the river and take it down.
Did I get completely lucky the big scare card came on the river? Possibly.
It worked this time. Its a fun play to try, for sure. Costly sometimes, works out others.
PokerStars Game #5941150943: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/08/16 - 17:22:54 (ET)
Table 'Eriphyla' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: CorkyStClair ($19.75 in chips)
Seat 3: Efram ($34.70 in chips)
Seat 4: firebull22 ($34 in chips)
Seat 5: Korn2005 ($27.20 in chips)
Efram: posts small blind $0.10
firebull22: posts big blind $0.25
genxmike: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Efram  
Korn2005: folds
firebull22 said, "i done it againll efram"
CorkyStClair: raises $0.75 to $1
superdioni joins the table at seat #6
Efram: calls $0.90
firebull22: calls $0.75
*** FLOP ***   
Efram: checks
firebull22: checks
CorkyStClair: bets $1.75
Efram: calls $1.75
firebull22: folds
*** TURN *** 
Efram: checks
CorkyStClair: bets $2.50
Efram: calls $2.50
*** RIVER *** 
Efram: bets $10.25
CorkyStClair: folds
firebull22 said, "there you go..got one"
Efram collected $10.95 from pot
Efram: shows (a pair of Sevens)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $11.50 | Rake $0.55
Board
Seat 2: CorkyStClair (button) folded on the River
Seat 3: Efram (small blind) collected ($10.95)
Seat 4: firebull22 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: Korn2005 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Posted Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:06 pm GMT by tame_deuces
I'm not to keen on the preflop call, ATo out of position is bad. And if you're bluffing here just C/R the turn, that's probably what alot of opponents would expect from someone holding a 7...you probably get away with better odds on your bet too. When bluffing with a potsized bet+ w/no backup, you have to be certain your opponent will fold most of the time.
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