$11 - Victor C - TPTK - call a big river ? |
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Posted Sat Aug 12, 2006 5:02 am GMT by red_pen
Blinds 30/60
villain has (played a few more hands than what would be normal so far. maybe running a 50% VPIP w/ a couple of pre-flop min-raises.
UTG has $3,360
UTG+1 has $2,350
UTG+2 has $2,780
UTG+3 has $320
HERO has $2,320
CO has $2,260
Button has $1,370
SB has $1,700
VILLAIN has $1,540
DEALT TO HERO A  K
4 folds, HERO called 60 and raised 120, 3 folds, VILLAIN Called 120
Pot = 390
FLOP 7  2  A
VILLAIN checked, HERO bet 60, VILLAIN called 60
Pot = 510
TURN 7 2 A J
Pot = 990
VILLAIN checked, HERO bet 240, VILLAIN called 240
RIVER 7 2 A J 6
VILLAIN bet 960, HERO ??
Simple question - call or fold... reasons would be nice, but I am interested in the general consensus because I liked what VILLAIN did.
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Posted Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:24 pm GMT by crack
It's a simple question, but the root of the problem and the possible answer lay in your previous streets.
Preflop: Raise more
Flop: Bet more
Turn: Bet more
You keep giving him odds to draw, and if he doesn't have a heart draw, he can probably count those 9 outs for him because he has a lot of bluffing potential when one comes.
I think you played it very poorly, and I would fold the river and be annoyed at how I played it.
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:26 am GMT by Dat_Dude
| crack wrote: |
I think you played it very poorly, and I would fold the river and be annoyed at how I played it. |
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:07 am GMT by UrAteUp
Very poorly played. What the sam hell is with that min betting post flop? Here is where you need to half pot or full pot bet.
The turn was a little better played but again as crack stated, your giving him odds to draw with such a small bet. Yes the 240 was a bigger bet but some on it isn't even half pot. Your giving the guy 5:1 pot odds on a hand that most likely has multiple outs.
Fold on the river, you already gave this pot away by letting him draw out on you.
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:23 pm GMT by mooseontheloose
The min bet was WEAK and says two things. Either:
a) My hand is weak, please steal it away from me, or
b) I'm on a draw/slowplay and want to pad this pot
A min bet will be called by most hands that have any sort of outs as his odds are very good to call at that point. When you flop TPTK with 2 to a flush, you need to bet big. Even if you scare him out and only get what's already there, it's better than having to fold/call to the flush or another draw later. Your turn bet was better, as mentioned, but not for a turn bet - would've been a more appropriate flop bet. By this point, the turn, you basically needed to make him decide if his draw was worth putting a lot of chips into the pot for. You didn't, you made it an easy call and whether or not he hit his draw on the river (he could've been holding 3s4c for all you know) you simply can't make that call.
When someone continues to check into you and call your large sized bets, you better start worrying you're playing into a made hand or a strong draw. BUT, if your opponent is checking into you and calling your small bets you have no clue where you stand, for all you know he would've done the same thing even if a heart didn't drop and in that case, would you have called? You probably would've looking at how you played it, but there are large possibilities this guy may have even had a flopped set.
Lesson here is if you are scared of a draw, give them bad odds to draw to. If he continues to call anyway you're either fighting with a fish or a made hand, but at least you'll know where you stand.
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:45 am GMT by red_pen
So that's four out of four to fold so far....
Anymore anyone?
Critique of play before the river, while welcome and appreciated, is not as important (to me anyway) as the river decision...
Sometimes people mis-click, make mistakes, play while drunk, or read the two hearts on the board as one heart and one diamond. The skill / knowledge is how best to recover from such moments.
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:57 am GMT by shorn7
| Quote: | Critique of play before the river, while welcome and appreciated, is not as important (to me anyway) as the river decision...
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Ummm, well actually critique of the rest of the play is IMHO much MORE important than the river decision. In fact, if Hero (you or not?) had played the hand better on the flop and turn, it is highly likely that there wouldn't even be a river decision to make. But, I digress...
Given how (badly) hero has (mis) played the hand, this is an (self induced) autofold of AK. Hero (desperately requires) needs some work.
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:41 am GMT by red_pen
Hero called. Villain was holding 3  2
It got me to thinking whether what Hero did is ever a valid line of play:
i.e. to induce a big river bluff by weakly betting the flop / turn, when you are quite convinced that Villain is the type of player to shove a river scare card ?
Does it ever get used?
Does it require a stupendously accurate read not possible at these levels?
Is it stretching credibility to believe that anyone would do such things at the $11s?
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:57 am GMT by Jefecaminador
| red_pen wrote: | Hero called. Villain was holding 3 2
It got me to thinking whether what Hero did is ever a valid line of play:
i.e. to induce a big river bluff by weakly betting the flop / turn, when you are quite convinced that Villain is the type of player to shove a river scare card ?
Does it ever get used?
Does it require a stupendously accurate read not possible at these levels?
Is it stretching credibility to believe that anyone would do such things at the $11s? |
Seems to me like you're making quite an elaborate reason to cover Hero'srather poor play. Hero had no idea what kind of hand the guy had since he never bet a substantial amount.
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:47 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | Seems to me like you're making quite an elaborate reason to cover Hero'srather poor play. Hero had no idea what kind of hand the guy had since he never bet a substantial amount. |
He was hero Jef....  
Red_Pen analize how you like and think of it as a good move but by not raising pre-flop you are allowing many hands that could beat you into the pot. After the flop, that min raise gave any , AJ and many other hands that could end up beating you, the odds to keep drawing for cards. Your turn play was a little better but once again your giving drawing hands odds to keep playing. You want drawing hands out quickly. The more cards you allow the weaker AK becomes on this board.
I can not stress enough how bad this hand was played pre-flop and that min raise...chit man...you killed 1000 baby kittens... ...it was that bad. Lets break down what your asking and examine it the UAU way... . I know several others will step in here and tear me apart but hell I am used to being told my poker playing sucks....  .
| Quote: | | i.e. to induce a big river bluff by weakly betting the flop / turn, when you are quite convinced that Villain is the type of player to shove a river scare card ? |
Yes it happens when you flop a monster but remember a monster is better played with as few players in the pot as possible. The more people who enter the pot the more often then not a monster hand will get beat.
| Quote: | | Does it require a stupendously accurate read not possible at these levels? |
I think reads are possible at any level. The higher you go though the trickier the play seems to be. But I don't think you had a stupendious read on this villian in your hand. He could have just as easliy turned over the 23 and taken you out of this tournament. You got lucky. Most times when I make an all-in call on a river, you can be assured I have xx in that case. I think most all other players on this forum are the same way as well.
| Quote: | | Is it stretching credibility to believe that anyone would do such things at the $11s? |
Would it be stretching credibility any more to say that someone could do it setting down at $0.50/$1.00 or $5000/$10,000 or an $11 SNG? Making good reads can be done. Online it is moreso knowing betting patterns and what they mean. Online players seldom forget to mix up their play. Because of this it is often easy to tell what a villian has based on the way he bets and how he plays a hand. Nothing new there that most anyone at any level can't figure out.
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:26 pm GMT by tame_deuces
I liked the the river bet - that was actually very nicely played by your opponent.
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:28 pm GMT by Jauron
There is so much more to talk about IMO than the river on this hand...
Flip a coin, it's probably 50/50 your ahead here. Villian played it well on the river regardless, but it's pretty standard if he doesn't put you on the flush.
Also the preflop raise was fine, you guys are nuts on that one. 3 or 4 times the BB, standard stuff.
Posted Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:38 am GMT by UrAteUp
| Jauron wrote: | | Also the preflop raise was fine, you guys are nuts on that one. 3 or 4 times the BB, standard stuff. |
It was a raise from 60 to 120 which is a 2xBB raise and not 3-4....
Posted Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:30 am GMT by Jauron
HERO called 60 and raised 120
I read that as a bet of 180. Since the pot was 390, it's 180+180 (120 more from BB of 60)+30 dead money from the SB.
/confused
Posted Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:58 am GMT by Dat_Dude
| Jauron wrote: | HERO called 60 and raised 120
I read that as a bet of 180. Since the pot was 390, it's 180+180 (120 more from BB of 60)+30 dead money from the SB.
/confused |
You are right Jauron. Since VILLAIN was on BB, he needed to call 120 more, so HERO raised it to 180. The HH is very confusing, if it is indeed a HH.
Posted Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:08 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| Jauron wrote: | HERO called 60 and raised 120
I read that as a bet of 180. Since the pot was 390, it's 180+180 (120 more from BB of 60)+30 dead money from the SB.
/confused |
I stand corrected...  . So yeah the pre-flop bet was fine. Jauron...my appology to you as well.
Posted Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:42 pm GMT by mooseontheloose
Just to clarify about preflop raises, since this was a confusing post lol.
If you say raise 3xBB preflop, does that mean you're to call the BB and raise 3x on top of that, or make the bet to call 3x the BB? (thus calling BB and raising 2x the BB)
Think I know the answer, just confused me a bit reading all that lol.
Posted Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:01 pm GMT by Jauron
A raise to 3x the BB in this case would be 180. 3*60=180
If someone said they called and raised 3x the BB, they are really just betting 4x the BB.
On another note, a buddy of mine bets like this HH is laid out, so I'm kind of used to it. He often announces his raise, not the total bet, something like raise 120 and he would throw 180 into the pot. Just two different ways to say the same thing, although I agree announcing just the raise makes it more confusing.
Posted Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:25 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
| Jauron wrote: |
On another note, a buddy of mine bets like this HH is laid out, so I'm kind of used to it. He often announces his raise, not the total bet, something like raise 120 and he would throw 180 into the pot. Just two different ways to say the same thing, although I agree announcing just the raise makes it more confusing. |
Pretty much everyone at my home game announces raises like this but me. They do it because every time you would say "180", the blinds would ask "so how much more to me?". It just saves time if you say "I raise it an extra 120".
Posted Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:34 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| Dat_Dude wrote: | | Jauron wrote: |
On another note, a buddy of mine bets like this HH is laid out, so I'm kind of used to it. He often announces his raise, not the total bet, something like raise 120 and he would throw 180 into the pot. Just two different ways to say the same thing, although I agree announcing just the raise makes it more confusing. |
Pretty much everyone at my home game announces raises like this but me. They do it because every time you would say "180", the blinds would ask "so how much more to me?". It just saves time if you say "I raise it an extra 120". |
I got to get up to one of your home games sometime Dat...is it a fish feast?... ...or does that only happen when your at the table?...
Posted Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:39 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
| UrAteUp wrote: |
I got to get up to one of your home games sometime Dat...is it a fish feast?... ...or does that only happen when your at the table?... |
Actually there are a few pretty good players, the problem is that nobody pays attention to the action. They are shooting the shit about God knows what. It gets annoying, but it is pretty entertaining.
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