How do you deal with Bad Players? |
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Posted Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:33 pm GMT by MasterMike
I am not claiming to be anything special, but i would consider myself a decent player. At my usual home game i play with some guys that are at about my level, and some guys that flat out suck.
For instance, last night i am playing, i am the short stack too. I am dealt k 9 and check in the big blind because i didnt want to commit too many chips to a mediocre hand.
Flop comes 9 8 4
I paired my 9 with king kicker, so i move all in.
I raised about 4x the pot, and the crap player calls, with a 10.
T: 10
R: A
Now, i can see if he called simply because he has two over cards, but this guy had a 10 suited and didnt raise preflop, when he would reraise preflop with hands like k 6 suited.
And here is the major problem, i know how to play some of the bad players in my game. I wait for a good hand, or i can tell when they are weak and reraise them, which will lead to a fold.
But now, because of this guy who called me with the a 10, some of the other people are doing the same as him, in which its extremely hard to put someone on a hand.
Say if i have k 10s and raise preflop they will call with almost any Ace.
So, if flop is k 7 j and i raise about 1/2-2/3 the pot, they will call, then it seems like quite a bit, they will hit their ace.
I think its really screwing up my game, because last few times i have played, i am playing the cards way too much instead of trying to get a good read and making good decisions and its really throwing me off.
It feels like i am working way too hard right now to come with any pot. Even when i try to bluff it doesnt seem to work because they have caught a pair and will quite often times overplay it (except when they lose with top or a high pair, it never seems to be to me).
I feel like i almost can figure out what they will do, but when someone bets the flop, checks the turn, calls a large bet (when they arent slowplaying), and then shows they paired their queen (high pair), when i had paired jacks, it confuses me.
And i know they dont think to try to confuse me, they just suck.
I mean, i played with a guy who had A Qs and didnt raise preflop because "i didnt feel like it". He wasnt slow playing trust me, he simply dint feel like it.
Help.
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Posted Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:05 pm GMT by JackKingOff
Well i dunno about you but most of the time i want clueless opponents calling with nothing but overs as they are easy money?
EDIT: o and 4x POT is way overbetting it...
EDIT: nvm didnt know u were all in at that point...
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:21 am GMT by UtrechtSlim
I think you induced a call there to be honest. You overbet the pot, he called you for a bluff. Can't judge it in a vacuum, but his move might be based on previous hands. Still a move I wouldn't make though..
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:24 am GMT by MasterMike
| UtrechtSlim wrote: | | I think you induced a call there to be honest. You overbet the pot, he called you for a bluff. Can't judge it in a vacuum, but his move might be based on previous hands. Still a move I wouldn't make though.. |
That move itself may have been, but i am not so pissed at the call, its just the fact that he didnt raise preflop when he will reraise preflop with shit cards like k 7s.
But trust me, this kid does not know how to play at all.
He will call x4BB with k 4 suited when two other people have called. Then, if i king comes out, he commits a lot of chips to basically 4 kicker because it was quite obvious the other guy has a king. Then when he only has to call something thats about 1/5th the pot size, he folds after he takes a good minute or two.
Thats what pisses me off, he is so unpredictable, so how do you even try to play with him.
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:10 am GMT by gumbie
When you realise you WANT ppl to call all-in with six outs you'll be one step towards being a better poker player.
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:19 am GMT by UrAteUp
Why are you commiting so many chips to marginal hands like a pair of 9's because it is the high card on the board? Sure if you had 99 and just made a set then IU can see pushing all in, but no just over a TPTK with more cards to come. Any pp or PP will call you and most likely beat you. As for this guy he just called and got lucky. Your play of that hand just makes for some bad poker, playing marginal hands in a big hand fashion will often cost you.
As for how to play a person like this. TAG is the answer. When I see someone such as this or a table bully, then I will set traps for them. Hit a good hand and bet it like I missed the flop. Overbet with a solid hand to induce them to call. All little tricks that just tend to help bust these types of players and add to my bankroll.
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:51 am GMT by Jefecaminador
UAU is on to something here. When you're at a much higher still level than your opponents, What you don't want to do is something like commit all your chips to a pair of 9s after the flop.
Play small pot poker.
The odds will even themselves out over time. And if they keep making those mistakes over and over again, you will win. No sense risking your whole stack when you dont have the nuts if you dont have to. Bad players are TRYING to give you their money, just dont be greedy and try to take it all at once. (Unless you have the nuts).
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:09 pm GMT by snoogins47
Against players that will call off massive overbets with basically nothing, that we're much better than, wouldn't we actually want to play a lot more big pots?
The answer is pretty easy. Find the best hand. Bet. Generally, people miss longshot draws more than they hit them. You win.
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:44 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| snoogins47 wrote: |
The answer is pretty easy. Find the best hand. Bet. Generally, people miss longshot draws more than they hit them. You win. |
Does bottom pair TOP kicker count? :D
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:00 pm GMT by MasterMike
| UrAteUp wrote: | Why are you commiting so many chips to marginal hands like a pair of 9's because it is the high card on the board? Sure if you had 99 and just made a set then IU can see pushing all in, but no just over a TPTK with more cards to come. Any pp or PP will call you and most likely beat you. As for this guy he just called and got lucky. Your play of that hand just makes for some bad poker, playing marginal hands in a big hand fashion will often cost you.
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Well, i see what you mean, but there was 1-1.50 in the pot, and i was down to my last 4 bucks and with everyone else had about 3x what i had, so i felt that this was the best i could do.
As for waiting for that great hand, i did that and it worked with great/no success, because often times i would get beat because some of these guys love to stick to their high pairs.
I think many times i have just been getting bad luck in the past 4-5 games i have played. For instance, i get pocket 6 to start off a cash game last weekend, and this other guy (who acted before me) just called (he never raises preflop), so i raise it up, and he calls.
Flop comes out 6 2 8.
I check, he bets, i reraise the minimum, he calls. So many he has a j, or pocket 7s, but nothing that shold really worry me as i have trip 6.
Next card: 2
I bet, he calls. (great for me)
Next card: K
Im thinking, oh boy this is great, after someone bet/reraise (dont remember), i move all in.
He calls... he had pocket kings.
I lose everything besides 1 buck.
I realize this is a very bad beat, but the idea that he didnt raise pre flop with kings (not to slow play, but because he thinks pre flop raising is a 'bitch move' ) just confuses me. And it makes it harder now to play with him, because now that he saw this guy play like a nut raising and making insane calls, he is doing it too.
I know it just seems i am ranting, but i would like to give you guys as much info as possible.
As i am saying all this im answering my own questions, but i feel as though im in a rut, and i am happy i am not losing much as i am capitalizing big on my big hands, which keep me just about even last 5 games or so.
This is a perfect example of my problem because i am trying to play only great hands, i feel a little more committed to them. So if i miss, i will take a stab at the pot, and then they will call with a pair that they always seem to hit. Then they stick with it, and i have to fold, or be prepared to lose a lot of chips. Then if i play and stick to middle pair, i feel like an idiot when they call to the river and have a higher pair/better kicker.
Its probably more mental that anything but any help would be appreciated.
EDIT: Next time i play, would it be smart to be much more aggressive on the turn/river against those kinds of players?
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:21 pm GMT by JackKingOff
I woudlnt reraise minimum...in fact there i would reraise his raise a good 3-4x and make a massive bet on the turn... depending on how the board looks... but if it is scary id try to put all my money in on the flop or turn
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:12 pm GMT by Jauron
| MasterMike wrote: | I am dealt k 9 and check in the big blind because i didnt want to commit too many chips to a mediocre hand.
Flop comes 9 8 4
I paired my 9 with king kicker, so i move all in.
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Those two things seem to contradict each other a bit. 
It's easy to call him bad, but start with your own play. You took a shot with a hand that under normal circumstances you'd probably not put your tourney at risk with. You felt compelled due to your short stack to take a shot, someone with chips called and sucked out. Live with the results of your decision is really the best advice I can give you.
Consider if you could have played it any better, if the answer is no, let it go. If the answer is yes, then learn from it. If he's the kind of guy who will call down any bet with A10, then know that going in...
GL
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:36 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| MasterMike wrote: |
Well, i see what you mean, but there was 1-1.50 in the pot, and i was down to my last 4 bucks and with everyone else had about 3x what i had, so i felt that this was the best i could do. |
Lets stop right here and think about this for a minute. There was $1.50 in the pot and you bet 3x the pot. Doesn't that seem a bit weird to you? Think what it looks like to the other players at your table. It looks as though your trying to buy a pot. If they have you covered in chips then chances are someone is going to get the balls to make the call and see what great hand you have or in this case don't have. They know that anyone playing a big hand is not likely to push at this point. A big hand would want to extract all the chips they could so why would they push with it?
| Quote: | | As for waiting for that great hand, i did that and it worked with great/no success, because often times i would get beat because some of these guys love to stick to their high pairs. |
Nothing wrong with that as long as you have a hand that will beat their high pair and bet it instead of trying to play tricky with it.
| Quote: | For instance, i get pocket 6 to start off a cash game last weekend, and this other guy (who acted before me) just called (he never raises preflop), so i raise it up, and he calls.
Flop comes out 6 2 8.
I check, he bets, i reraise the minimum, he calls. So many he has a j, or pocket 7s, but nothing that shold really worry me as i have trip 6.
Next card: 2
I bet, he calls. (great for me)
Next card: K
Im thinking, oh boy this is great, after someone bet/reraise (dont remember), i move all in.
He calls... he had pocket kings.
I lose everything besides 1 buck.
I realize this is a very bad beat, but the idea that he didnt raise pre flop with kings (not to slow play, but because he thinks pre flop raising is a 'bitch move' ) just confuses me. And it makes it harder now to play with him, because now that he saw this guy play like a nut raising and making insane calls, he is doing it too. |
Lets analize this play here and see why you got beat. Ok you raised 66 in LP. Now stop here and think what hands could be flat calling a raise? I am not sure how big of a raise you put in for that pp of 6's but we can work around that.
Flop came out and you hit a set. He bet and you min raised? Why the hell did you min. raise? Min. raise means nothing to a PP. It's like hunting elephants with a flyswatter...just doesn't get attention. You should have raised it big here and either got him off the pot or at least woke him up real good and got his attention.
The turn brought a 2 which gave you a full boat. 6 over 2 boat. Great hand. Only beatable by a larger boat. You bet here again but you didn't say what you bet. Again it does matter the amount you bet. Frankly, I don't play around here. I push right here and take this pot down. If I push here and get called most times I will win. So lets say I get beat...no big deal because I had all my chips in the pot with the best hand at the time. Not my fault that he got lucky and stuck 1 of 2 outs that could beat you. But the thing is you force him to make a descision. A descision that can cost him everything right here. Not just a buck or two. That's small compared to his entire stack being at risk here.
You tried slowplaying and it cam back to bite you. Never slow play vulnerable hands such as sets, straights and flushes.
| Quote: | | I know it just seems i am ranting, but i would like to give you guys as much info as possible. |
Nothing wrong with ranting...we all do it at times... 
| Quote: | | a perfect example of my problem because i am trying to play only great hands, i feel a little more committed to them. So if i miss, i will take a stab at the pot, and then they will call with a pair that they always seem to hit. Then they stick with it, and i have to fold, or be prepared to lose a lot of chips. Then if i play and stick to middle pair, i feel like an idiot when they call to the river and have a higher pair/better kicker. |
Then don't stick into pots wherte you are sure your beat. That is giving away money. If you truely want to do that let me know and you can donate my way.... . Stick to playing solid hands and pay attention to position. Don't play hands such as Q9o, K9o or other marginal hands from EP. Even raised they are going to cost you more in the long run then you'll win. Again let me repeat...Pay SPECIAL ATTENTION TO STARTING HANDS STRENGTH and POSITION. These are you two best weapons in NLTH.
| Quote: | | Edit: next time i play, would it be smart to be much more aggressive on the turn/river against those kinds of players? |
Not if your playing MPGK (middle pair good kicker). Play strongly on good hands and hands where you have a hand...the best hand. Play them aggressive and make sure never to give odds for calling. In other words do not min. raise or min. bet solid hands. These are not hands for trapping with, these are beatable hands and the more you lolly-gag and dick around with them the less valueable they can become. So strike with them while they are good.
Good luck and pay attention to hand histories. These can be your best friend for finding weaknesses in your play.
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:25 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
| snoogins47 wrote: | Against players that will call off massive overbets with basically nothing, that we're much better than, wouldn't we actually want to play a lot more big pots?
The answer is pretty easy. Find the best hand. Bet. Generally, people miss longshot draws more than they hit them. You win. |
I wanna play big pots when I have a big hand. Having K9 on a 9 high flop doesnt classify as a big hand to me.
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:02 pm GMT by snoogins47
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | snoogins47 wrote: | Against players that will call off massive overbets with basically nothing, that we're much better than, wouldn't we actually want to play a lot more big pots?
The answer is pretty easy. Find the best hand. Bet. Generally, people miss longshot draws more than they hit them. You win. |
I wanna play big pots when I have a big hand. Having K9 on a 9 high flop doesnt classify as a big hand to me. |
Well I wasn't specifically talking about that hand, but the general idea is that you don't need nearly as big of a hand as normal to get involved in big pots, If somebody is going to call huge overbets with as little as ace high, we can get a lot of value out of some pretty 'not so big' hands.
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:11 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
double post
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:14 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
Oh I entirely agree. I would prolly push if I had TPTK on the river and not think twice about it. I was just saying that with hands like K9 I would not invest that much money especially with the turn and river still to come. Until I'm reasonably sure that I'm going to win the hand, I'm not trying to put a lot of money into it. Like say... 90% sure. Until then, I'm keeping the pots small and my options open.
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:29 pm GMT by MasterMike
Well, i dont care that i got beat. Thats not the problem.
I realize this is poker and bad beats happen, im sorry if i didnt make that clear.
What i get pissed about is the fact (in the two times i lost big), was that nobody raised preflop.
With k 9, and 9 8 2 coming out, and me getting called, i dont get pissed by getting called by a 10, i get pissed that i get called by a 10 (good starting hand), when he didnt raise preflop, BUT he raises preflop and calls large preflop bets with cards like a 5, k 4, k 7, etc.
Well this is what i thought when i slow played the set. First of all, i raised preflop to take the pot down right there. Anyway, I figured the guy is an idiot, who called with maybe a 7 or middle pocket pair, but didnt have anything that caught the board. I did the minimum raise because i wanted to simply get more money from him.
When the full house came, i probably bet a little less than the pot (i remember after he called he had a little less than 1/2 his original stack), so then with the king, i hoped i figured it hit him, so then i pushed, hoping he would call.
He did and i got beat. But once again, although it sucked, i was just stunned he didnt raise preflop, not so much the beat. THen later that night he didnt raise a q because 'he didnt feel like it'.
As for starting hands and position, i have been paying attention to those things and am still learning (especially position). I think i just get a bit frustrated/impatient so i force things prematurely. The one thing i am somewhat pleased about is, i dont overcommit and lose huge pots. Put when i lose 4 out of 5 small to medium sized ones over an hour, it wears you down, but i still dont play rags.
The funny thing is, if i were you guys, i would probably tell me a lot of the same things, which is good and bad in some ways. When you say watch hand history, it does help,ill give you that, but with some of these wierdos playing crap cards and raising like hell, and losing 1/2 their stack in a hand, then the next hand doing the same thing with trips, i dont know what to do if im in a hand with them.
One other rambling, which i put a little light on before about the full house beat, when you really figure the guy is an idiot and maybe was still calling because he had an a 2 (or give him a little more credit and say a k), you want to suck out all he had. Plus, i really wanted to put him out of the game 1st hand because hes had that happen before and wanted to give him the record.
Im not sure if i agree with never slow playing sets, straights, or flushes. Sometimes i do believe you just have to take the pot down, but with 6 8 2, i couldnt figure that he could have anything that could beat me at that point.
Whatever, the point is, i suck against these unpredictable players and want a little more help.
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:33 pm GMT by tame_deuces
How do you deal with bad players:
a.) Realize that even bad players will from time to time do some 'clever' stuff. (Not always clever, but it can throw you off quite abit).
b.) Don't freak out when you lose, it will happen alot.
c.) Profit.
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:39 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
You play the set of 6s fine imo. I wouldnt classify them as vernable hands like UAU does. Unless there are obvious draws out there, I'm never looking to "take the hand down" I'm trying to get my opponents entire stack by any means neccesary. If that means min raising, I do it. If he sucks out on you with a non-obvious draw then so be it.
Just try not to get frustrated if you're losing to idiots... If you just keep your cool and keep at it, eventually you'll win.
Posted Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:41 pm GMT by Jauron
The full house hand is just a good ol fashion ass whoopin you get to pay off every time. The way it was played you had zero chance. Chances are even if you push on the turn (and there is no reason to) he calls and still sucks out. Being ahead when the money went in is completely besides the point in that case because the result was likely the same. When you have the top end of a full house you really can't play it wrong if you get the money in at any point after you make it.
My advise to you if they won't raise preflop is to increase your own starting hand range and draw more. Look for hands like 2 pair to move in with and bust their slow played big pair. Other than that it really depends on the players, some can be bluffed, some lay down on the river, some on the flop some on the turn. Some will call you with any pair, those guys you have to show down with. Most bad players will have patterns they don't even realize, learn them and take advantage of them.
Against bad players I will sometimes call for info, and test them a few times to get a feel for how they play and adjust my own play when in pots with them. It's up to me adjust to them, not the other way around. Most bad players I just hammer when I have it, and lay off when I don't. They could have a lot of hands, I just go with the ones where I'm likely ahead and live with the end result.
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