Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:40 am GMT by shorn7
Game is 5/10 NL, $1000 max buy-in.
I have been playing for 1/2 an hour and have yet to table a hand. I am down to $950 when this hand comes up. No specific reads on any given players, but the table seems generally pretty loose/passive.
I get dealt AsAd on the button. UTG player min-raises to $20 and cutoff calls. Pot is $55. I make it $120 to go, a little larger than a pot-sized raise. I am hoping to isolate and many players have shown the willingness to call large re-raises once in the pot. Blinds fold, UTG raiser folds, and cutoff thinks for a bit and then calls. No specific read on him; he has almost exactly the same amount that I have behind ($875 after his call of the $100). At this point I put him on a pocket pair, AK, or AQ. Pot is $275.
Flop comes Th 7h Kc. He checks. I bet $200. He calls rather quickly. So, I narrow down his range to AK, TT, 77 (not very likely), potentially QQ-JJ, heart draw, or some combination of a pair and heart draw (most likely the Kh). Pot is $675 now and I have $630 left and he has $675.
Turn comes Qs. He checks again. Here is where I want feedback. Do you bet again here and if so, how much. Do you check instead? If you choose to check, how much will you call on the river if a blank comes? What are the merits of each play?
I will post results after seeing some comments.
Thanks,
Shorn
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Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:00 am GMT by tame_deuces
Note: I do not play these stakes and hence I won't talk much about the hand, just the general concept as it relates to my stakes.
If I check behind on the turn I have to increase the amount I'm willing to call pot-odds wise on the river, the weakness shown can a.) Induce bluffs b.) Lead people to believe their 2nd best hand is the best one.This play is good vs floaters which will check-call to see if their hand is good and also ok vs aggro players who will probably bluff-bet river.
If I bet the turn with aces on this board and get C/R, I really have to re-evaluate my hand against an ok player. This is a very funky board to check-raise the turn with a holding aces can beat. Betting is probably good play versus drawy players, stations or when you are contemplating a possible fold as you get to decide the bet size.
As a default at my stakes I bet here and go from there, if I get called I can get a free showdown and a C/R will tell me alot pending on which player I'm up against.
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:19 am GMT by ki_cz
I'm really interested to hear the results, these are the kind of boards that make my stomach turn when I have AA. In the stakes that I play, I'm putting this guy on AK. I doubt he would be slow-playing a set. I'd bet the turn again thinking my AA would still be good, but I would be scared.
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:35 am GMT by Dat_Dude
I also play nowhere near these stakes, but I think the line I would take is to bet out again. If your opponent is trapping, he might just call and hope you hang yourself again on the river.
I rule out AK in this scenario since I assume this type of hand would have raised us on the flop. If you say they are loose, are hands like KT likely to call a reraise preflop? A quick call usually means some sort of draw, but that is more at lower stakes. He might be on a heart & straight draw. If he has a set, this is a pretty scary board and he might let you get away with a smallish turn bet and check the river.
I bet out $200-$300 and hope he just calls and checks on the river if you are indeed beat at this point.
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 9:44 am GMT by UrAteUp
I agree with Tamed and Dat. I definately don't play these stakes but in general you have to call the turn. If CR does happen then you have to stop and think what could he be raising with. If he just calls and if he checks the river then check behind to avoid any traps.
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:00 am GMT by shorn7
Since I have no particular read on this guy, the stakes don't matter much. And since we aren't playing incredibly deep stacked, some of the more advanced theories (about protecting what you have behind and pot size management) don't apply either.
OK, I like your line of thinking here. But the problem is that the size of the pot and the remaining stacks (all about equal) make my choices pretty poor:
1. Blocking bet: $150 to $200 into the $650+ pot. Either size of bet gives flush draws proper immediate odds to call, much less implied odds. I am not sure if this is a viable play also given the fact that I already bet $200 on the flop and was called quickly.
2. 1/2 pot sized bet or more: IMO, this type of bet commits me to the hand and if that is the case, I might as well push now on the turn and hope AK will call or that he is on a FD. But, since he called $100 cold preflop AND $200 quickly OTF, am not sure I like this play either because I definitely could be behind and drawing extremely thin.
3. Check: Gives the dreaded free card that could beat me. That being said, this option might actually be the best because it saces me $$ when I am behind by making his value bet on the river smaller AND it might induce AK to bet the river which is fine.
Only if a truly horrible river card came (say the Qh) would I consider dumping the hand at this point. So, I think I have to be willing to call at least $300 on the river to check the turn here.
Before I post what I did and the results, any more thoughts?
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:13 am GMT by tame_deuces
Didn't note the pot/stack, see how much I pay attention.
Anyhow, I don't think it matters too much. You got in so much preflop with the aces that the loss of paying off a hand that 'sucked out' by betting is minimal over the long run -> PP must make back about 12BBs X 10 for a set to be profitable against you and most other hands similar numbers.
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:50 am GMT by shorn7
RESULTS
At the time (and with my 30 seconds dwindling), I decided to bet again on the chance that he held hearts or AK. STUPIDLY, I bet an amount that committed me to the hand ($400) instead of either pushing, checking, or putting a little probe bet out there (like $150). Anyway, he checkraises me all-in for my last $230 which I am compelled to now call getting $1700 to call $230 or a little better than 7-1. He tables KsQd, the board doesn't pair or bring an ace and I lose.
After thinking it through and hearing all of your responses, I am now leaning towards checking the turn and either playing for a showdown on the river or calling a bet on the river since if he had AK he will fire at it and if he has a set or two pair as he did, I can save some $$ by playing that way.
Bottom line: I think given no specific reads on a player who has called substantial bets from you, it is probably best to try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible.
Anyway, thanks for the input.
Shorn
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:08 am GMT by Aves
i find it hilarious that dat_dude and urateup don't say a word about the preflop raise in this case that is 6x times the minraise with 1 other limper in the pot, but in a case where another poster was OUT OF POSITION, had THREE OTHER LIMPERS in the pot, that a raise of 5.5x the minraise is INSANELY TOO MUCH!!!!?!?!?!?11!?!
A quick call to me usually means he has a decent made hand (usually one that AA can beat), or a draw. Also, shorn, i agree with your analysis on the end that a check is probly better as any bet pretty much commits your whole stack, and i don't think a pair even as good as Aces on a board this scary is good enough to do that. Personally I would just spike a black jack on the river.
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:29 am GMT by shorn7
Not sure about the 5.5x raise discussion...must have missed that one.
But, in my defense, I was hoping to isolate the inital raiser as I didn't want to take a flop with two callers with my hand. Call me crazy, but I like AA to either win a small pot right away, or get against 1 other player where a flop bet will usually do the trick. It seems to me that (as in this case), AA and KK are hands that are much more likely to get stacked than to stack your opponent.
Of course, by (STUPIDLY!!!!) betting the turn, I violated that rule, but hopefully I will learn from this and not do it again.
Thanks,
Shorn
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:37 am GMT by UrAteUp
Nothing wrong with a 5.5xBB raise. Now it is was 10 or 20xBB then yeah I would say that was stupid...  5.5xBB just means he is looking for respect...
Posted Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:15 pm GMT by tame_deuces
I think a general rule to 'not bet' in a situation like this is bad, just as I think a general rule to 'always bet' is bad. This is a 'it depends' situation for me.
Posted Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:21 am GMT by Jauron
| shorn7 wrote: | RESULTS
At the time (and with my 30 seconds dwindling), I decided to bet again on the chance that he held hearts or AK. STUPIDLY, I bet an amount that committed me to the hand ($400) instead of either pushing, checking, or putting a little probe bet out there (like $150). Anyway, he checkraises me all-in for my last $230 which I am compelled to now call getting $1700 to call $230 or a little better than 7-1. He tables KsQd, the board doesn't pair or bring an ace and I lose.
After thinking it through and hearing all of your responses, I am now leaning towards checking the turn and either playing for a showdown on the river or calling a bet on the river since if he had AK he will fire at it and if he has a set or two pair as he did, I can save some $$ by playing that way.
Bottom line: I think given no specific reads on a player who has called substantial bets from you, it is probably best to try to get to showdown as cheaply as possible.
Anyway, thanks for the input.
Shorn |
Yeah a check or push would have been my play, probably leaning toward check as you said in your last part, trying to get a showdown as cheaply as possible. I do not think a probe bet in this instance is a smart move. There is no way he can put you on AJ and KK or QQ wouldn't value bet the turn on this type of board. AK or AQ is probably about the best we can hope for here and unless it is of hearts we are probably going to get that shown down cheaply.
That board is a nightmare, I feel for you given the stakes and the price you pay for being wrong here, but then thats why I don't play those stakes I suppose.
Posted Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:53 am GMT by snoogins47
| shorn7 wrote: | RESULTS
At the time (and with my 30 seconds dwindling), I decided to bet again on the chance that he held hearts or AK. STUPIDLY, I bet an amount that committed me to the hand ($400) instead of either pushing, checking, or putting a little probe bet out there (like $150). |
I don't think this bet is necessarily all that bad... especially if pushing is an option. I have to throw the same disclaimer out there that I haven't played quite that high, so I don't really know the average level of play up there.... it's tricky though, since AK is a reasonable possibility for him. I think we often would've (should've?) seen a push on the flop if he had a drawing hand.
I feel like the stacks are too short to bet-fold any amount here, and probably too short to check with the intention of folding the river if we don't improve. I think they're too short for us to fail to get value out of AK though too, so as much as I hate to say it, the "It probably doesn't matter much" analysis is probably pretty close to correct. If any of our possible 'outs' weren't scary as all hell for everybody in the entire room, I would probably lean more toward checking, but I think here I probably play it similarly.
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