Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:42 pm GMT by Kalbelgarion
I read HoH v I & II recently, and one of the minor tips I picked up is that it's never correct to fold in the SB to an unraised pot. The pot odds given to you require at least a call.
Since I've read HoH and his talk about pre-flop pot odds, I've found myself limping more. I went from playing 15-20% of my hands to playing 30-35%. I've always learned that one should play very, very tightly in the early stages of a tournament. However, when it only costs me a limp of $30 to see a pot that's already $210, I'm kind of compelled to call.
Should I be worried that I'm seeing too many flops and wasting too much money? Or should I be happy that I'm capitalizing on more situations where I get to see flops with big pots for cheap?
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Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:12 pm GMT by ninetensuited
im against this....one reason...if people are limping then their hands are something they want to see the flop w/, but not good enough to raise.
if you've got 4 or 5 limpers here like it seems you do w/ a 210 in the pot,
id make a pot sized raise to see how much they want to see the flop...i do this alot in the early stages of freezeout tournaments and is the basic means of me building my stack.
I agree, this probably doesnt work for everyone. but it has been working for me real well lately
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:31 pm GMT by Skribbles
Even against just the BB you are getting 3:1 to call. The vast majority of the time you will not be worse that a 3:1 dog.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:32 pm GMT by UrAteUp
I think it really depends on what the cards are that your running into the pot with. If it is something strong like AK, AA or KK then your crazy to limp. If it is something like a 99, QK, J10, etc. then sure it can be worth it to limp into a pot. The biggest fear you better have on a limped hand is that someone connected in a big way with that board and they are disquising it from the table by playing it weak. Now say your delt 720, 92o or crazy crap like that. Then I wouldn't even bother limping in even from the SB.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:43 pm GMT by jonesyb
| UrAteUp wrote: | | Now say your delt 720, 92o or crazy crap like that. Then I wouldn't even bother limping in even from the SB. |
surely it depends though? in a multiway pot then yeah lay them down... but HU the value of these hands go up. so at the very least a call would be ok?
hmm an interesting one.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:45 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| jonesyb wrote: | | UrAteUp wrote: | | Now say your delt 720, 92o or crazy crap like that. Then I wouldn't even bother limping in even from the SB. |
surely it depends though? in a multiway pot then yeah lay them down... but HU the value of these hands go up. so at the very least a call would be ok?
hmm an interesting one. |
You could call with these types of hands but I think your throwing away money here even HU and in the SB.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:57 pm GMT by Dave B
The reason that you arent thowing money away with 92 etc is that you are getting 3:1 to call. It doesnt get more clear than that.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:03 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Sure, you'll rarely be worse than dog than the pot odds justify, but you will probably not see all 5-cards all the time since a preflop SB call rarely puts you all-in, and your horrible position will make it hard to determine if a mediocre holding might be the winner and you can more easily be bluffed out of pots + when you lose you will tend to lose bigger pots than when in position.
There is much more to preflop pot odds than an equity comparison between 92o and a random hand in the BB based on seeing all 5 cards.
Sure, the odd call and raise for blind-steal is ok, but completing any two...meh. Junk in the SB vs random hand in the BB is like holding 22 out of position vs AK, sure...equity wise they're the same but in reality we know that 22 will get folded more often when it is the best hand than AK, that it is generally a harder hand to play after the flop etc. etc.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:06 pm GMT by Kalbelgarion
Yeah, I was under the impression that if you have the pot-odds, you call, no questions asked. So if you have 6 limpers in front of you, and you're on the button, and the SB and BB haven't been raising every hand, you call, even if you have 72o. Chances are you have a greater than 12.5% chance of winning in this case, right?
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:10 pm GMT by shorn7
The key here is being able to get away from hands like top pair when they do come. Basically you call because the pot odds are good, but you are eally looking to hit your hand twice before you commit any significant $$. If you can't get away from top pair with T8o, then you should probably just fold instead.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:13 pm GMT by Kalbelgarion
Exactly. When I limp here, I'm looking for two pair, a boat, or a straight or flush draw that I can cheaply continue. Just about all these hands I'm limping with when I have extrordinary odds I'm folding on the flop to any opposition. Which makes me question whether it's a good money-making move or not.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:14 pm GMT by shorn7
It is as long as you can get away. You shouldn't get carried away with it...only do it in the SB and in LP. Don't do this in other spots.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:25 pm GMT by Dave B
I limp or raise w/ many different hands from a variety of positions.
I would rather limp from early position w/ 5  7 than with A10.
I would rarely limp from late position w/ A10 and no action before me (always raise) and I would never limp w/ 5 7 from late position and no action before me.
Like shorn said, dont get carried away with it. Maybe one out of 15-20 hands or so, not every 3rd pot.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:52 pm GMT by Loonbat
On a related note, learn how to punish just one limper (generally in the SB). Shorthanded or HU, I'm raising from the BB more when I see a constant SB limp. By the time they figure out when/how to counter, I've picked up plenty of spare chips. Sometimes they never figure it out and keep folding ...
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:00 pm GMT by Ryan231
| Kalbelgarion wrote: | I read HoH v I & II recently, and one of the minor tips I picked up is that it's never correct to fold in the SB to an unraised pot. The pot odds given to you require at least a call.
Since I've read HoH and his talk about pre-flop pot odds, I've found myself limping more. I went from playing 15-20% of my hands to playing 30-35%. I've always learned that one should play very, very tightly in the early stages of a tournament. However, when it only costs me a limp of $30 to see a pot that's already $210, I'm kind of compelled to call.
Should I be worried that I'm seeing too many flops and wasting too much money? Or should I be happy that I'm capitalizing on more situations where I get to see flops with big pots for cheap? |
In the early stages of a freezeout I'll often limp with hands that can become very powerful after the flop, Axs, PPs, and medium suited connecters. I don't really think you should raise unless you actually have a hand your willing to play a pot with because more oftan than not one of those limpers has a hand they are willing to call a raise with after they've limped, considering the pot will be often laying them favorable odds.
I agree with Dave though, don't become one of those players that limps off 200-300 of their stack in the early going seeing flops with trash. Maybe every once in a while but IMO the best way to win freezeouts is to wait until the blinds increase slightly then play big pots with big hands. I usually don't play the first or 2nd orbit when the blinds are 10/20 unless I actually have a decent hand. If you want to limp into multiway pots have a hand that can actually become powerful after the flop, Axs, PPs, and medium suited connecters are great hands for this, I also like KJ suited or not and KQo for this as well. The reason is because if you hit a pair your kicker is often good and players limping with hands like K9s and QTs will pay you off.
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