Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:59 pm GMT by ComedyBee
Is it actually possible to beat micro no-limit holdem?
I can't possibly see how you can win enough money to balance out the money lost to idiot callers.
I certainly can't beat it and i have tried many times.
Have any of you got any advice, baring in mind im talking about $0.05/$0.1NL holdem. I feel completely out of ideas at the moment.
Dave
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Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:00 pm GMT by MasterShake
You have to factor in something called 'implied collusion.' This basically means that even though you will beat any idiot over the course of time, you can't beat five idiots attacking you at the same time.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:05 pm GMT by ComedyBee
So what is the solution to this, what should i work at?
Ive had about 5 or 6 attempts at various micro-limit and no-limit holdems and have never beaten them.
It seems like solid play doesn't even really work at these levels.
Maybe i should get looser in the majority of situations and push chips more, people seem to be betting and raising with very little.
CB
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:10 pm GMT by tame_deuces
You gotta be able to stand the suckout, pure and simple...because there will be tons of them. When you haul pots they'll tend to be big.
So it goes like argh!-bah!-meh!-hell yeah!
rinse and repeat.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:47 pm GMT by ComedyBee
What style of play typically suits micro-no-limit.
I'm considering a more loose aggressive style, to try.
Dave
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:03 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| ComedyBee wrote: | What style of play typically suits micro-no-limit.
I'm considering a more loose aggressive style, to try.
Dave |
At micro stakes, I'd say you can play LAG if there is not much pre-flop raising, or if your opponents are weak-tight. Otherwise, if they call as much as you say, I'd opt for a more TAG style and just primarily value bet to get your money.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:46 pm GMT by Hurricane Ham
Have you ever considered the possibility that you're just not as good as you think?
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 5:39 pm GMT by ComedyBee
I don't think im good, im not that naive.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:32 pm GMT by mindgame
Consider that the function of micro-limit (or No-fold'em Hold'em) is to break even while learning the game, get a feeling for what to play and and how and where to play it. learn to recognize idiot calls and callers. After you've progressed far enough you go move up against better players--or at least a lower percentage of idiots.
This I can absolutely promise you will either work or it won't.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:34 pm GMT by craggoo
Somewhere in a thread supa posted some helpful guidelines on beating NL games. The kind of hands you want to be playing are PP's, suited and off suit connectors, and if you can limp with them high cards (KQ, KJ, QJ, etc). Honestly, when someone raises if i have something like K10 or A10 im mucking. Against raises, you dont want to match your high cards with their high cards because theirs are most likely higher and could have you dominated (AQ vs KQ for example). The reason you play the hands i mentioned in the beginning is they are very well disguised hands. If you hit 2 pair with them or a set an overpair WILL pay you off everytime.
Posted Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:38 pm GMT by mooseontheloose
Craggoo makes a good point. I often see/hear people say they can't make money in cash games but I think they are often too conservative. Let's face it, if you have AA:
1) You raise before the flop and get 1 caller for example
2) Flop is a rainbow of lower cards, you continuation bet
3) Either the flop helped him, in which case he May call or it missed and he'll fold
This is often how AA, KK, etc. go, often resulting in a more steady increase in stack rather than huge pots. In cash games your major money hands are sets, concealed straights, nut flushes or full houses with a flush or straight draw on the board. Big pots require a few hands to have outs - after a preflop raise a board of A 10 5 rainbow looks good to no one but an A holder. But a flop of JT4, 2 diamonds, looks good to anyone with a straight or flush draw - if you're holding Ax of diamonds here you're likely to get paid if your flush hits, and same if you're holding Q9 and the flush doesn't come. Just remember that a premium hand looks good to you, but it also often becomes apparent to your opponent that you have them beat when you bet it; with these hands you often have the benefit of concealment.
Just remember that premium hands Can win monster pots but often won't in cash games so you need to make sure you're not passing up good opportunities to play PPs, suited connectors, etc.
Posted Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:41 am GMT by kingetje
oh its very possible.. its mostly how i got my $55 to around $500
Posted Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:19 am GMT by ComedyBee
Congratulations on that transformation of your bankroll. Have you got any general advice on how i can accomplish that. Did you just play an all round solid game and accumalate that over a long time?
Posted Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:34 am GMT by kingetje
well it took me about 8 months i think.. thats how long its been sice i deposited im pretty sure
i must say i dont really play that "solidly" if by that you mean tight preflop. i play alot of hands, but fairly aggressively. i find that in those levels (at the site i play at at least) the play is very meak and weak, and i often take many many pots on the flop without showdown just by showing some aggression. making continuation bets or just raising a few players who showed horrible weakness by just calling an also weak tiny bet. most of the players will not resist. by picking up many of those small pots i can afford it to have some douchebag suck out on me as well because it will be paid by all those small pots ive taken. plus, when i have a big hand, i get big action. this way i have been pretty successfull in the micro limit tables on doyles room
Posted Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:25 am GMT by JewishPete
When I started actually 'building' a BR a month or so ago, I had to start at $.05/.10 NL, which was an extremely big change for me.
I'm not sure how you consider it 'unbeatable' but from my experience, it's probably one of the easiest games to beat.
It's a simple theory really. First off you really have to Multi table, and play ABC poker according to the table. If their are a bunch of nut peddlers, play a LAG game. On the contraire, if it's a bunch of calling stations, play super TAG poker.
At tight NL $10 tables, less hands actually get shown down then you would think. Players at this level generally still don't understand the value of a hand and if they miss a flop at a tight table, a pot sized bet will almost always take it down.
have the BR to sustain the suckouts and I don't really see how you can lose at that game.
Posted Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:20 pm GMT by craggoo
That is the same limit I play pete only i play at Absolute Poker. I have to say there are a ton of fish at that limit willing to call all-ins on draws or even just top pair alone. I stacked 2 people today on my big hands when they overvalued their top pair or their overpair. I started my BR on August 8th @ $1 from a freeroll win on AP. It just broke $80 today because of some really bad preflop calls people made. Look in "the tales of texas holdem" section to see what i mean. You will see how profitble those limits are when people go fishing. If you want help with advice in real time games I would be willing to help out. I have all the time in the world :D Fish shouldnt be allowed to keep their money 
-Cragg
Posted Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:32 pm GMT by craggoo
Oh, I also wanted to mention that I started at $57 yesterday in my BR. People were hitting miracles on me all day long... just extreme long shots that you just shake your head at. My poker buddies in aim were just laughing at me saying that they hadn't seen luck that bad in a while. At one point, I was losing to 1 or 2 outters every big hand I had (never on the flop or turn... always at the end). I know all about just total junk luck. My low for the day was $23 in my BR and i was really starting to get depressed. This was after 9 hours of play. I finally picked up 2 hands in my 2 tables (i play 2 .10 NL tables at once right now). I had 77 in each hand. Both tables i got raised in so i called. Both tables i flopped a set in. One against a lower set (44) and another against a flopped 2 pair. I won both pots and instead of being down over $30 for the day I was now down only $10 which is a very acceptable loss. I retired from the day feeling pretty good about my play; knowing that the only reason i was down that day was because of the many 1 and 2 outters, perfect runners for straight and flush, and just all-in-all really bad play from my opponents. If you play correctly in a day you should feel good about yourself whether you come out ahead or behind that day. All you can hope is to get your money in with the best of it and let fate do the rest. Cheers
-Cragg
Posted Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:04 pm GMT by Loonbat
| craggoo wrote: | If you play correctly in a day you should feel good about yourself whether you come out ahead or behind that day. All you can hope is to get your money in with the best of it and let fate do the rest. Cheers
-Cragg |
QFT - as Mike Caro says, it's not about winning the most pots, it's about making the right decisions.
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