One Thing I Still Don't Understand... |
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Posted Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:50 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
... is why some players will limp in with marginal hands (55, KJ, etc), and then call if someone goes all-in behind them.
They obviously didn't think their hand was strong enough to raise. And yet they will call for much bigger amounts than a raise would have cost them... I guess the gap concept doesn't apply in their minds.
Any rationale for this?
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Posted Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:28 pm GMT by TxShadow
I have no good answer to that question, Diamond 
Posted Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:15 pm GMT by suitedaces84
If someone's raising all-in standards are lower than their calling all-in standards limping in then calling will give you a better chance to play against a bad hand. If you're going to get all-in preflop vs. you'd prefer that your opponent's range will be wide. If you raise with KJ a player behind you will fold worse hands he may have raised with had you just limped. This is probably their line of thinking. The reason they are generally wrong in doing this is because they overestimate their equity vs. worse hands and underestimate the value of the blinds.
Posted Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:57 am GMT by Skribbles
I'll do this w/ low pockets for a couple different reasons:
1) Limping because I want to play a multiway pot for as cheap as possible hoping for a set.
2) Racing with short stacks. As suited said, pushing requires less of hand. So I do not want to scare a short stack from pushing by opening for a raise. Limp, let him think you are weak and that he can pick up your chips.
3) If a big stack starts getting frisky its an easy fold.
I will NOT do this with KJo or similiar hands. Most of the time your will be dominated. Of course low PPs can be dominated but I prefer taking my chances that someone has 2 overs (or 1 over w/ Ax).
Posted Sat Aug 19, 2006 1:43 pm GMT by wEbMaStEr
I can kinda understand it, if you're in early position with 55 say, you want to be limping, rather than commiting all your chips only to be called by a much stronger hand.... or 3.
If you only have 1 player reraising you all in then you have a choice to make.
I never like to be all in with low pp's... but sometimes... ya know 
Posted Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:07 pm GMT by Jauron
| Skribbles wrote: | I'll do this w/ low pockets for a couple different reasons:
2) Racing with short stacks. As suited said, pushing requires less of hand. So I do not want to scare a short stack from pushing by opening for a raise. Limp, let him think you are weak and that he can pick up your chips.
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I dont' understand the reasoning behind this. While a short stack's hand range to push all in to limpers folders is fairly large we can probably assume we are at best a coin flip. How is racing for upwards of 30% of our stack by forcing ourselves to call a short stack and gambling a good move? Considering most of the time the blinds are healthy when short stacks move in we can make money just collecting blinds/antes and if they do move in on us when we raise we can make a decision. I'd rather force a suspect hand out with something like 55, than to "slow play" it and let hand like J8s double up when they wouldn't have called a standard raise.
I feel you overvalue small pairs if you feel they are racing ammo with short stacks by design. This isn't like limping with Aces or Kings in hopes we can reraise you are trying to get a short stack to move in and then plan to call them. That puzzles me.
I'm interested in hearing any follow up however, there could be something I am missing here.
Posted Sun Aug 20, 2006 11:51 pm GMT by Skribbles
| Jauron wrote: | | How is racing for upwards of 30% of our stack by forcing ourselves to call a short stack and gambling a good move?Considering most of the time the blinds are healthy when short stacks move in we can make money just collecting blinds/antes and if they do move in on us when we raise we can make a decision. I'd rather force a suspect hand out with something like 55, than to "slow play" it and let hand like J8s double up when they wouldn't have called a standard raise. |
From early position I would not normally raise with low pockets because if a big stack comes over the top you either have to fold or commit more chips to the pot. 30% of my stack would be the absolute max I would do this. Preferably are 10-20%. But of course every situation is dependant.
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I feel you overvalue small pairs if you feel they are racing ammo with short stacks by design. This isn't like limping with Aces or Kings in hopes we can reraise you are trying to get a short stack to move in and then plan to call them. That puzzles me. |
This definitly isn't like limping with aces or kings. If your sitting with 10,000TC and a short stack pushes for 1500, do you not call with a low pair assuming that it will be heads up? Losing 1500 chips here would not hurt at all. Risk vs Reward.
Example:
Blinds: 100/200
Hero-UTG: 10,000
UTG2: 5,000
MP: 7,500
MP2: 15,000
LP: 2,000
LP2: 10,000
CO: 1,500
Button: 4,500
SB: 7,500
BB: 18,000
In this situation (or similiar from early position) I would limp hoping for a multiway pot or hope for a push from LP or CO. I don't like raising here. A low pair (22-88) obviously isn't very strong and if a big stack re-raises, you are forced to fold or commit alot of chips. If you are raising and possibly calling a re-raise the you are commiting just as many chips as it would take to put a short stack allin. At least by having a shortstack all in you get 5 cards. Unless of course its a shortstack. Again, losing a pot vs LP or CO does not hurt us whatsoever. Accumulating chips is what MTTs are all about and if I feel that someone is short enough to be pushing with Ax or 2 random cards, I take the chance.
Hope my ramblings make sense.
Note: Can someone post a link to that random hand generator.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:54 pm GMT by Jauron
I don't disagree with your senerio, but I don't 100% agree either. Yes a pair of 5's is a hand that can be beatin easily, however as one of the bigger stacks I think it is important to put the decision to everyone else on the table.
In this case it cost me ~600 to bring it in for a raise, 6% of my stack. It costs the small stacks about 40-60% of theirs to call, and you know if they have an ounce of sense they will either push or fold. Big stacks behind now see early aggression, this limits the hands they should be willing to reraise with, and if we face one we are nearly certainly beat or they hold a premium hand like AK that doesn't have us yet. It's easy for us to let go of our hand since we have so little invested. However lets consider a few other senerios with-in this one.
Limp and call #1
You limp, shorty 1 or 2 or both move in, table folds and you get to call for ~20% of your stack. If they both move you have more hands and cards to fade but the payoff is attractive. Best case.
#2- You limp, shorty 1 or 2 or both move in, healthy stack behind has better than average hand he wishes to play against a short stack, but still has to deal with you. He would be more likely to reraise to freeze you if he likes his hand, this includes hands that don't have you beat and are not AK.
AJ, A10, AQ, KQ even a weaker ace might reraise trying to limit the money they can loose and hold position on you if you still call. They are probably obligated to at least call since you showed no strength and they know it's easy for you to release your hand.
Raise #1- You bring it in for a standard raise- shorty 1 or 2 or both move in, hands like A10, AJ, AQ, KQ are in a tough spot. Good enough to call shorty but maybe not strong enough to raise against an early raiser. They really have far less options. Smooth call with anything less than a premium hand or fold it and wait for a better spot since you can raise them again. If they smooth call you have even more money in the pot and generally will get to see cards until you are beat. If an Ace comes and someone leads out you are pretty safe to fold here. If they reraise you can drop your hand pretty easy as you are likely up against a premium hand and you only loose ~6% of your stack, or ~4% more than the limp. A player might with a weakish ace or just KQ might even pass here since you are likely to call the short stack. I personally will lay down something like A9 easily if I feel the original person in the pot will call shorty. You have less hands to go through to win the pot.
Now stupid players who overvalue hands like AJ,A10 and worse or small pairs might on occasion force you out of the hands in this situation but seem just as likely to do it, if not more likely if you limped and showed no real strength.
Now my experience is somewhat limited in bigger MTT's, which is why I wanted some more info. I could be way off base here but my line on the matter suggests I expose a little extra to get a lot more information should someone reraise behind shorty. I also don't really WANT shorty to move in, but I can live with it if they do. It is a race, best case most of the time here so I prefer shorty fold. Another thing to consider is by raising you prevent shorty from moving in with any two cards, further frustrating them as they fight to get a hold of any chips. Since in this case short is in the CO I force him to have a hand he wants to play for his remaining chips since he knows I am likely to call him.
Interested in other POV's on this...
Posted Sat Aug 26, 2006 6:46 am GMT by MrDarling
I might do it in a tourney if allin is from
A. Short Stack , everyone else fold and I think my live cards stand a chance - my stack needs to be big enough not to suffer from a lose
B. Guy went allin too often and a couple of times shows crap cards, Axo etc..
I did it once in a ring game , I'm on the button , EP min raise , everybody called. All I had was QTo. SB went allin for 80XBB . Since all I sat with was 10XBB I called . Who goes all in so over the top? I figured he had marginal cards.
He had 4's - flop came Q74 ... I think I made th eright call, but it doesn't mean I'll do it often 
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