Posted Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:40 am GMT by Concussed
Hi all,
Bit of a newbie question perhaps, but only been playing a month on PokerRoom Limit (50-1.00)
Early on I did lose by playing rubbish hands, but after analysis, i can see which hands win and which don't.
So, now I play what i thought are winning hands only (AA, KK, KQ, and only a few more), except i still seem to lose to hands that I reckon are generally losing hands (i.e. A 5)
For instance, this morning play about 170 hands and lose $20 overall - this seems to be a fairly consistent loss over several days, with a rare win mixed in.
Anything i'm doing wrong ? 
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Posted Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:47 am GMT by MasterShake
| Concussed wrote: | Hi all,
Bit of a newbie question perhaps, but only been playing a month on PokerRoom Limit (50-1.00)
Early on I did lose by playing rubbish hands, but after analysis, i can see which hands win and which don't.
So, now I play what i thought are winning hands only (AA, KK, KQ, and only a few more), except i still seem to lose to hands that I reckon are generally losing hands (i.e. A 5)
For instance, this morning play about 170 hands and lose $20 overall - this seems to be a fairly consistent loss over several days, with a rare win mixed in.
Anything i'm doing wrong ? |
What position are you playing these hands in? AA and KK can be played anywhere, but are you playing KQ when you're first to act? That's a hand that shouldn't be played unless you're in a later hand. You should pick up Winning Low Limit Hold 'Em by Lee Jones and Small Stakes Hold Em Poker by Sklansky and Malmuth.
Posted Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:51 am GMT by fourleaf
There is no such thing as a winning or losing STARTING hand. You need to play position, stack sizes, and playing styles more often and not concentrate so much on on starting cards. Only after you're comfortable with that will you win more consistently.
Posted Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:54 am GMT by Concussed
I now generally ignore position... (is that noise your head banging against a brick wall...!)
I analysed positions too, and it seemed to make little difference.
Posted Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:09 am GMT by fourleaf
you then answered your own question...position, IMHO is the most important variable regarding which starting hands to play, to raise and to continue to play post flop.
Posted Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:25 am GMT by mooseontheloose
That is your mistake then, position is very important in this game.
One observation is that you said you're only playing 'winning' starting hands like AA, KK and KQ. Firstly, no hand is a winning hand unless you push All-in preflop and get called - this is the only time you can consider your starting hand a winner. Rather, AA and KK, etc. are strong hands but need to be played properly to win the pot.
If you are ONLY playing quality hands (let's say AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ for example) you are limiting your ability to make money since you are not playing position. In this game, especially at lower stakes, your huge payoffs will come from sets, concealed straights and full houses on a flush board. AA, KK, etc. rarely win a monster pot but 77 on a board of KT7 rainbow will usually pay you off big time. In late position you need to take advantage of this, limping in with suited connectors, PPs, and Ax suited. If you missed the flop you can fold out, if you hit the flop with those hands though you will often be paid off better than when holding a premium hand.
As mentioned though, you could be misplaying your 'good' hands positionally. Are you playing KQ, KJ, AJo, etc. are from 1st position? If so, you're looking for trouble. Another thing, do you bring these quality hands in for a raise? If so, raising from 1st with KQ is going to be a lot of trouble if you continue to do so.
I suggest picking up a book or two to read through, specifically about position as it really is something that needs a lot of consideration at the table.
Posted Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:36 am GMT by Concussed
Some interesting and fresh advice here - many thanks.
(What's a "PP" ?)
Posted Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:47 am GMT by mooseontheloose
Pocket Pair
Posted Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:55 am GMT by LeafsFan1122
It's not just the starting hands that you need to know about either.
Postflop play is the most important street of the hand. When to raise, when to call, etc...
Posted Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:01 am GMT by Concussed
Stats from this morning.
Game: Small stakes Limit hold'em ($.25 - .50)
Time: 4.5 Hrs
Lost : $9
Played: 216 pots
Won: 19
Pre-flop fold: 56%
Flop fold: 20%
Turn fold: 6%
River fold: 3%
Went to river after flop: 34%
Folded to river bet: 25%
Showdowns won: 61%
I suspect i don't fold enough before the flop ?
Posted Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:56 am GMT by MrDarling
you see too many flops .
Especially as a beginner your flop % should be 20%-30% . We are still not sure how to read people post flop. So its best to have a good hand before committing any money into the pot.
But at least you win enough SD, which means you know not to pay on the river when you are beat.
Posted Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:04 am GMT by tame_deuces
| MrDarling wrote: |
But at least you win enough SD, which means you know not to pay on the river when you are beat. |
I'd just like to say that a too high win % at showdown is a sign you fold to many possible winners on the river. A capital crime in limit poker where the river often offers you incredible pot odds.
As for these hands you shows us here Concussed I'd guess you haven't really played enough hands for them to matter all that much. The easiest thing you do when you start out is to play very tight preflop and each time you think you have the best hand after the flop you bet/raise it.
Posted Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:37 pm GMT by UrAteUp
One thing you also need to make sure to do is make sure your playing those big starting hands right AA, KK, AK etc).
Position is so important in a poker game...especially NL holdem. This entire game is more about position then actually having the best hand.
Post a few of your hands to the forum and I am sure you will get some great feedback on how you played and different ways you could play them diffeerently and maybe more effectively.
Posted Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:26 pm GMT by Concussed
Position: Small Blind, 10 players
Cards: Jc, 10s
Low Limit Hold'em 25-50c
There were 2 callers, i called, and the BigBlind checked
Flop: Kd, Jd, 9c
I bet 25c (my thinking, J pair + Possible straight), 2 players folded, but one raised, i called.
Turn: 2h
I checked, the other bet, i called
River: 4s
I checked, the other bet, i called
He won with A A.
I lost $1.75
Hand 2:
Position: 3rd after the Button - 7 players
Cards: As, Jc
I was first, and Called, the next Bet, and everyone called making a large initial pot
Flop: Jd, 9s, 9d
SB +BB checked, i bet, 2 folded, the other 4 called
Turn: 7d
SB+BB checked, i bet, 1 raised, 1 re-raised, SB+BB folded, I called (ERROR??), 1 raised again, and i called, making 3 hands in the pot
River: 6h
I checked, 1 person bet, me + other called
I lost $3.25 to a flush Ad+Kd by the person who had re-raised after the turn
Posted Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:43 pm GMT by mooseontheloose
This is Limit correct? I don't play it, so my advice is limited.
But in Hand 2, you had to fold that turn card. That is a straight and flush card, not to mention if someone has a 9 you're behind. With all the action on the turn, you had to realize you were beat and very few outs (Might've been different if you had Ad)
Anyway, a seasoned Limit player will be able to help you better, just my $0.02.
Posted Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:47 pm GMT by snoogins47
| fourleaf wrote: | | There is no such thing as a winning or losing STARTING hand. |
Isn't there, though?
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:14 am GMT by fourleaf
Oh wait...I forgot that AA always wins. So to change my answer...always play AA to the max no matter what flops, turns or rivers... that should get u back on the winning track. Oh and any hand with a two in it is a loser so chuck those always. My book will be out soon.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:59 am GMT by UrAteUp
| Concussed wrote: | Position: Small Blind, 10 players
Cards: Jc, 10s
Low Limit Hold'em 25-50c
There were 2 callers, i called, and the BigBlind checked
Flop: Kd, Jd, 9c
I bet 25c (my thinking, J pair + Possible straight), 2 players folded, but one raised, i called.
Turn: 2h
I checked, the other bet, i called
River: 4s
I checked, the other bet, i called
He won with A A.
I lost $1.75 |
This hand was badly played by both you and the guy who won. He should have raised with that AA. Nothing good really ever comes out of slowplaying AA in limit or NL Holdem.
Your bet on the turn was terrible. The only people who will stay in hands like this after a bet is made are those on a draw or those who can already beat you. Why bet with middle pair when someone could hold the K or a KJ? I don't like the call on the river either. You knew most likely you were beat. Might as well save the last bet and lay it down at the river.
| Quote: | Hand 2:
Position: 3rd after the Button - 7 players
Cards: As, Jc
I was first, and Called, the next Bet, and everyone called making a large initial pot
Flop: Jd, 9s, 9d
SB +BB checked, i bet, 2 folded, the other 4 called
Turn: 7d
SB+BB checked, i bet, 1 raised, 1 re-raised, SB+BB folded, I called (ERROR??), 1 raised again, and i called, making 3 hands in the pot
River: 6h
I checked, 1 person bet, me + other called
I lost $3.25 to a flush Ad+Kd by the person who had re-raised after the turn |
I think here is a classic example of being married to a hand. This flop should have scared the heck out of you with those two 9s. It wasn't bad to stay in this hand with AJ. The problems I see start at the turn card. Why re-raise with TPGK (Top Pair Good Kicker) when someone most likely has a set, boat or flush? You by far did not have the best hand here so I can't understand the raise by you. Calling wasn't as bad as raising here. You have to know that with that board there are several hands possible that can beat you. A set of 9s, a full boat or with 3  s on the board someone could and did have a nut flush. Do not get too attached to your hand even if it is a strong hand. Learn to pay more attention to the board and what it is showing you and also pay attention to the other players. Look to see what hands they like to play and how they play them.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:08 am GMT by UrAteUp
| Quote: | | There is no such thing as a winning or losing STARTING hand. You need to play position, stack sizes, and playing styles more often and not concentrate so much on on starting cards. Only after you're comfortable with that will you win more consistently. |
| fourleaf wrote: | | Oh wait...I forgot that AA always wins. So to change my answer...always play AA to the max no matter what flops, turns or rivers... that should get u back on the winning track. Oh and any hand with a two in it is a loser so chuck those always. My book will be out soon. |
Do you read what you write or do you just throw it out there and set back and think you line of thinking is the nuts?
No single two cards do make a winning hand often but there are starting hands out there that make better cards to play then others. Saying one is like the other is ludicrist.
Tell you what, write your book on poker. I will actually buy a copy. Hell I might buy a million because if I could get everyone I play to follow your book I think I stand a damn good chance of making a million playing poker this year...  ...most of them listen to people who must not know as much as you...like Lee Jones, Slansky and Harrington....
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:47 am GMT by Dave B
1) 170 hands of $.25/$.50, if the table is loose and the rake is 10% then everyone at the table had likely paid $170 in rake. You might have lost $17 of $20 just sitting at the table.
2) you are seeing too many flops
3) are you getting maximum value out of big hands and minimizing losses w/ smaller hands
4) are you stealing pots or just showing down winners?
5) dont listen to the previous moron, there are winning hands and losing hands. Sometimes odds dictate playing weaker hands, but doing it consistantly will result in you going broke. This is especially important in limit poker.
6) are you playing any 2 suited? if so, DONT!
7) are you respecting raises and raising enough preflop? What hands will you lay down to a raise and what hands do you raise or 3 bet?
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:59 am GMT by fourleaf
hey UAU... I don't think that what I first posted is different than what you (kinda) stated...of course there are better starting hands then others...which DEPEND ON POSITION, STACK SIZES, AND PLAYING STYLES OF YOUR OPPONENTS. The OP wanted to know why when he only played the premium hands he still lost. I only stated that there were more important variables to consider.
In case it escaped you, the second post was sarcasm...so lighten up. More posts does not equal supreme poker knowledge!!
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:07 am GMT by fourleaf
Oh and Dave...moron is strong word to use when all I said was there are no guaranteed STARTING winning or losing hands. The OP was playing only premium hands like they would never lose no matter the other variables that need to be considered AND ASKING FOR HELP AS TO WHY HE WAS LOSING.
Let me ask you (since I am a moron) which preflop hand do u play that's unbeatable? Please tell me so I can grasp this game.
PS You both should calm the rhetoric...u may wonder why only about 15 people post here with regularity. Its a great board but your responses shut out people for fear of getting flamed.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:46 am GMT by Dave B
There are hands that will win consistantly and hands that will lose consistantly. Remember, this is limit he is referring too.
For example, if you play 100 hands w/ 84, you will lose. If you play 100 hands w/ AA, you will win.
What in the heck do stack sizes have to do with what hands to play in a limit poker games? Please enlighten me and I will recant my moron comment.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:00 pm GMT by fourleaf
Never did I say that there weren't hands that were better than others...just that you cannot expect to win based on premium starting hands. And yes you are right, stack sizes have little to do with limit games. I only tried to clarify that there are more variables to consider than starting cards when considering a fold, a call or a raise. If generalizing to a self admitted noobie is grounds for being a moron than we have more morons here than you think.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:52 pm GMT by Dave B
There are a lot of posters here who either dont pay attention to the original post or who make comments that I feel are very irresponsible. I dont reply to all of them, but sometimes I just cant take it anymore.
Nothing personal, this was the 1st of your posts that I replied to. I do feel that telling a newbie who is struggling that the #1 factor in determining success in limit poker (starting hands) is not the MOST important thing that they can do to improve their results is dangerous.
Experience players have the years of hands to filter though what you may have meant, a new player does not.
He was seeing 45% of flops at 10 handed limit, you have to be a great player to win by seeing that many flops.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:13 pm GMT by fourleaf
The issue was what OTHER than starting hands would be responsible for his "losing". He was already only playing the premium hands and couldn't see why they would lose to " hands like A5"... I merely pointed out that there were other very important factors involved in one's decisions as to how to play each hand.
The flame treatment only serves to alienate people who honestly are trying to help. I am a newcomer and you all jumped on me. Ease up...I am not trying to misinform a noobie. I think most will realize that stack sizes are of little importance in FL games...even hopefully a noobie. If not let him ask for clarification...don.t jump down my throat.
And UAU... well in retrospect I shouldn't have even responded to you...it justifies your off-base comment.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:18 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
Fourleaf,
I agree with you in terms of this flaming the newcomer issue. It's totally uncalled for and it does scare people away from posting.
In defense of Dave and UAU, both of these players have been around here for a long time, and have seen a lot of new players who come and post their incorrect, logic flawed nonsense - especially as of late. So Dave and UAU were just trying to prevent that, I think.
Welcome to the forum. It really is a great learning source and fun community. Don't let this mishap discourage you from staying - most of the people here are very formative and friendly.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:20 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| fourleaf wrote: | hey UAU... I don't think that what I first posted is different than what you (kinda) stated...of course there are better starting hands then others...which DEPEND ON POSITION, STACK SIZES, AND PLAYING STYLES OF YOUR OPPONENTS. The OP wanted to know why when he only played the premium hands he still lost. I only stated that there were more important variables to consider.
In case it escaped you, the second post was sarcasm...so lighten up. More posts does not equal supreme poker knowledge!! |
Now what you said in the first part was :
| Quote: | | You need to play position, stack sizes, and playing styles more often and not concentrate so much on on starting cards. |
This was the main thing I wanted to eleborate on. I can see Dave kind of beat me to it though. Not worrying about your starting cards as much as your playing style?.. That's like saying ...hey if we act smart and look smart then we really don't have to be smart. We can just appear to be.... . Appearances like that, looking strong without a hand to back it up, is pretty crazy. In Limit it is even worse advice to offer. All someone has to do is isolate you and call you down.
As for the flaming. I don't think I do flame people. I think you tried to offer a little advice that you just didn't put out there right. When I read a later post in this thread it made a little better sense in what you were trying to say to the OP.
I understand what your trying to say son...now just spit it out in full context without coming back with sarcasim... 
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:40 pm GMT by fourleaf
ok for the last time...uau the issue the OP had was not about choosing starting cards... he was ALREADY DOING THAT. I only added that he needed to consider other things that (blasphemy here) are sometimes as important like position. Telling me that I need to read things before I post them implies that I have no concern for the issue, am not intelligent and don't understand the game. I'm not a pro but then again i'm sure you're not either. I stand by what I wrote in the context of the OP's post...and if sarcasm is not welcome here then you better police the rest of the board because it's RAMPANT.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:55 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| fourleaf wrote: | | ok for the last time...uau the issue the OP had was not about choosing starting cards... he was ALREADY DOING THAT. |
From a post from OP yesterday...
| Concussed wrote: | Stats from this morning.
Game: Small stakes Limit hold'em ($.25 - .50)
Time: 4.5 Hrs
Lost : $9
Played: 216 pots
Won: 19
Pre-flop fold: 56%
Flop fold: 20%
Turn fold: 6%
River fold: 3%
Went to river after flop: 34%
Folded to river bet: 25%
Showdowns won: 61%
I suspect i don't fold enough before the flop ? |
Are you dealt premium hands 44% of the time over 4 1/2 hours? I'm beginning to understand why I can't win at this game....
He clearly wasn't only playing premium hands, regardless of what he said in his first post.
| fourleaf wrote: | | Telling me that I need to read things before I post them implies that I have no concern for the issue, am not intelligent and don't understand the game. |
Or it just means you need to read things before you post them. I can't comment on the lack of self-esteem that causes you to believe these other things were implied.
Concussed: Tighten up. You're playing too many hands.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:09 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| fourleaf wrote: | | ok for the last time...uau the issue the OP had was not about choosing starting cards... he was ALREADY DOING THAT. I only added that he needed to consider other things that (blasphemy here) are sometimes as important like position. Telling me that I need to read things before I post them implies that I have no concern for the issue, am not intelligent and don't understand the game. I'm not a pro but then again i'm sure you're not either. I stand by what I wrote in the context of the OP's post...and if sarcasm is not welcome here then you better police the rest of the board because it's RAMPANT. |
First let me say I am sorry for making it seem like I was busting your chops on any of my posts. This last one was made light heartedly to try to let you understand we are not cob assed stiff necks around here. We do know sarcasim and jokes. It's accepted and often fun to see.
I never once said you didn't understand the game and were stupid or ignorant. Far from it. What I did say was:
| Quote: | I think you tried to offer a little advice that you just didn't put out there right. When I read a later post in this thread it made a little better sense in what you were trying to say to the OP.
|
Meaning, yes OP should give alot more thought to his position. As well as what position he is playing what hand in and how he plays it, but you did say playing style has alot to do with it too and I disagree with that especially in limit poker.
Sure you can raise, re-raise and even cap the bet. Again like I said, all someone has to do is isolate you and call you down. So if you do have the best hand you win but if not he finds out cheap enough.
Also as Sean and others pointed out, with seeing 42% of the flops I don't think OP is primarily playing strong starting hands and misplaying the strong ones he is losing with. So I think there are several factors OP should be looking at here. I think OP would be wise to invest in a good book on limit poker and then come back and play the game.
Chime in here other limit players. Thoughts and all on if my thinking is flawed here or what. My main experience with limit is live so online limit is limited for me. I know the game and can play it but NL is my thing.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:21 pm GMT by Concussed
Thanks for the reponse so far - very interesting that my question caused such heat but thats Poker I guess !
To clarify... my original post did say that i have only recently been playing premium hands only in any position, and wondered why i kept losing.
My Statistics post was an example of playing a looser type of game - in fact how i played very early on in my 'career' before trying to go 'tight'.
Sorry for any confusion there.
Has anyone any other opinions on the 2 hands i posted earlier ?
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:22 pm GMT by Concussed
PS It is Limit Hold'em - not NL or PL.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:26 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Concussed wrote: | To clarify... my original post did say that i have only recently been playing premium hands only in any position, and wondered why i kept losing.
My Statistics post was an example of playing a looser type of game - in fact how i played very early on in my 'career' before trying to go 'tight'. |
I'm confused by your two hands then. AJo UTG and JTo in EP/MP are not hands you should be playing. Is this supposed to be loose or tight?
Regardless, you're playing too many hands. Tighten up.
When you think you're there, tighten up more.
And then when you get bored of folding every hand preflop, fold more of them.
Seriously.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:28 pm GMT by tame_deuces
In response to the heated debate:
OP asked about limit. Starting hands is the most important factor to limit play. Low stakes limit isn't low stakes NL where a bad starting hand will be made up for by stacking horrible opponents when you hit after the flop or where you can chase of the weak tighties ezy.
So the easiest thing to do in limit when starting is to play tight as nit, read theory and slowly expand your game.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:42 pm GMT by Concussed
Advice taken... i went 'tight' tonight...
Limit hold'em 50c to $1
Played 89 hands (Won 4)
Lost $13
Pre-flop fold: 76%
Flop fold 8%
Turn fold: 3%
River fold: 2%
Went to river after flop: 42%
Showdowns won: 33%
One hand stuck out....
I had 5d + 5c just before the button, and called after 1 other called (limped) and BB limped in too
Flop: Ah 5s Jd
BB checked, Winner checked, I bet, BB folded, Winner called
Turm: 2d
Winner checked, I bet, winner called
River: Ks
Winner bet, i raised, he re-raised, i called
Winner revealed 10s Qh so won with straight and i lost $5
Was this unlucky, or did should i have folded when he bet after K at River ? bearing in mind he had 'only' limped in originally.
Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:55 pm GMT by tame_deuces
You should never fold that river.
Its basic pot odds lesson, very important in FL.
Let's say the pot is 100$.
Your opponent bets 10$
Pot is now 110, you have to call 10. 110:10 = 11:1.
So your getting 11:1 odds on your call, which means that as long as you have the best hand more than 1 out of 12 times, it is not a losing play to call.
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