Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:49 am GMT by Oasis
Ok so this is a bad flop for me...
What to do?
Full Tilt Poker Game #923294817: Table Civic Center - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 8:40:23 ET - 2006/08/22
Seat 1: blonde823 ($11.40)
Seat 2: MadMedic ($1.85)
Seat 3: stox ($8.60)
Seat 4: True Surf ($2.35)
Seat 5: ges1952 ($3.90)
Seat 6: Oasis123 ($10)
Seat 7: Mayhem52 ($2.95)
Seat 8: Co-chillin ($3)
Seat 9: ts24chavez ($14.70)
stox posts the small blind of $0.05
True Surf posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Oasis123  
ges1952 folds
Oasis123 calls $0.10
Mayhem52 calls $0.10
Co-chillin folds
ts24chavez folds
blonde823 calls $0.10
MadMedic folds
stox calls $0.05
True Surf checks
*** FLOP ***   
stox checks
True Surf checks
Oasis123 bets $0.80 <--- try to take it down here with an oversized bet.
Mayhem52 calls $0.80 <--- ok so he has a diamond i'm guessing
blonde823 folds
stox folds
True Surf folds
*** TURN *** 
Oasis123 bets $1.90 <---- flop brings no diamond so I fire off again.
Mayhem52 raises to $2.05, and is all in <--- I thought he was taking a gamble, hoping to hit a diamond on the river. Only an extra 0.15 to call.
Oasis123 calls $0.15
Mayhem52 shows  
Oasis123 shows
*** RIVER *** 
Mayhem52 shows a flush, Ace high
Oasis123 shows two pair, Aces and Tens
Mayhem52 wins the pot ($5.60) with a flush, Ace high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $6.20 | Rake $0.60
Board:
Seat 1: blonde823 folded on the Flop
Seat 2: MadMedic (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: stox (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: True Surf (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: ges1952 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Oasis123 showed and lost with two pair, Aces and Tens
Seat 7: Mayhem52 showed and won ($5.60) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 8: Co-chillin didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: ts24chavez didn't bet (folded)
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Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:03 am GMT by tame_deuces
I wouldn't limp AT UTG+1, raise or fold pending on nit-factor. Some probably disagree.
Don't bet oversized bets, you prefer action when you have a strong hand, it makes you money.
Your opponent had so little behind that a fold was never an option.
Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:23 am GMT by shorn7
Well, I limp with ATs all the time. I don't think it is a good enugh hand to raise with, but with the right flop, you can stack someone.
I would have bet the pot on the flop and then if called, I am done with the hand unless I improve. Sure, someone could have just a naked diamond, but I don't wat to build a bigger pot on the turn with my hand. I most likely check and fold on the turn depending on what he bets.
The question you should aks yourself before betting the turn is do I want to call a raise with my hand? If the answer is no (and for me it is here), then don't bet. Play for the cheapest showdown you can.
Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:35 am GMT by Incognito129
I think the bet on the flop was a mistake. You were in very bad position with a flush draw on the board. With 2 diamonds i would of bet the pot but with 3 diamonds it looks like trouble.
Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:12 am GMT by tame_deuces
| shorn7 wrote: | | Well, I limp with ATs all the time. I don't think it is a good enugh hand to raise with. |
Well, my idea is that I raise with ATs if I'm first in, because it isn't a good enough hand to limp with.
Different schools of thought.
Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:13 am GMT by shorn7
I guess the question I would have for you Tame is why do you raise with it, especially from EP? WHat are you trying to accomplish with the play? I am not being a smart a$$ here...just trying to understand your thought process.
Thanks,
Shorn
Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:22 am GMT by tame_deuces
| shorn7 wrote: | I guess the question I would have for you Tame is why do you raise with it, especially from EP? WHat are you trying to accomplish with the play? I am not being a smart a$$ here...just trying to understand your thought process.
Thanks,
Shorn |
The keyword is 'if', because I might fold it too, I'm kinda random that way. But if I play a medium hand from EP, then I want leverage. I don't want to limp, get raised and then lose all my momentum. Raising gives me two ways to win, by making the best hand or by making the other guy fold his best hand.
Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:36 am GMT by Oasis
So if you raised UTG with a medium hand and were reraised would you lay it down?
Wouldn't it be cheaper to limp and try and see a flop for a smaller price? If I am reraised I can lay it down and only lose the cost of the BB.
Sorry, I think i'm missing something.
Cheers man.
Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:19 am GMT by shorn7
| Quote: | | The keyword is 'if', because I might fold it too, I'm kinda random that way. But if I play a medium hand from EP, then I want leverage. I don't want to limp, get raised and then lose all my momentum. Raising gives me two ways to win, by making the best hand or by making the other guy fold his best hand. |
Hmmm. I am not sure I understand this, but it could simply be in how we individually view ATs. I view this mostly as a volume hand that I want to see a cheap flop with unless I am in LP and the first to act. I certainly would not fold it for the first bet unless there was some maniac behind me who was constantly making big raises preflop that I didn't want to call.
I also don't necessarily think raising with it gives you a whole lot of leverage from EP. You are most likely going to have to follow through with a continuation bet no matter what comes and I think it is quite likely that you will be called in at least 1 spot preflop given your position.
I guess what it comes down to for me is that the argument that you might win the blinds if everyone folds doesn't hold weight in NL (IMO) since the amount of $$ that you actually win when the blinds fold plaes in comparison to what you could win if you limp/catch against another strong hand, AND you are risking getting re-raised with a hand that you will have to let go of because it is relatively weak.
Please don't take this as me ragging on how you play it...I just view the hand differently, that's all.
Shorn
Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:38 am GMT by tame_deuces
| Oasis wrote: | | So if you raised UTG with a medium hand and were reraised would you lay it down? |
It depends on who re-raises, pot odds, stacksize etc. etc. Besides, I probably fold ATs from EP in full ring most of the time. If I'm playing funky I probably have a low pocket pair, a low connector or a standard strong hand when I raise from EP.
| Quote: |
Wouldn't it be cheaper to limp and try and see a flop for a smaller price? If I am reraised I can lay it down and only lose the cost of the BB.
|
I would rather spend my $ on raising people who limp hoping to see a flop cheap .
Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:17 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Raise that A10 preflop. The reason you want to raise it is to isolate and get others out of the pot. If villian in this case was tight you might have gotten him to throw away his hand pre-flop with a nice raise.
As for the flop. Not sure what OP is thinking by firing out such a big information bet here. A 1/2 pot would have been good enough to tell you if villian was on a draw or not. Most players in this situation are not going to come over the top of you right away. Why should he. You played his hand perfectly fine for him.
The turn should have given you more information then you needed. True he might have been on a draw still and pushed hoping to spike a  on the river, but why risk a decent portion of your buy-in to find out? Why not wait for a better time and place to risk it when you are for sure in the lead on the hand?
Posted Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:48 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Shutting down on the turn with top two w/AT vs a shortstack at a 10NL table because 3 diamonds flopped and he called is baaaaaaaad play.
Stop being nits and play this like we have the best hand untill we see the chips flying the other way. We even got outs if should happen to have the flush.
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