Percentage Flop Seen in Loose Games? |
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Posted Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:24 am GMT by Chipenstein
I've been playing micro limit games (.10/.20). Is there a ballpark rule of thumb as to a % of flops that a good player will see? Here's my stats:
During current Hold'em session you were dealt 176 hands and saw flop:
- 9 out of 21 times while in big blind (42%)
- 12 out of 21 times while in small blind (57%)
- 49 out of 134 times in other positions (36%)
- a total of 70 out of 176 (39%)
Pots won at showdown - 12 of 20 (60%)
Pots won without showdown - 13
Ya think I've been playing too loose? I'm breaking even - still learning.
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Posted Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:30 am GMT by LeafsFan1122
That number looks far too high - especially for a beginning player.
It would probably be in your best intrest to reduce that number to around 25% at the most. The only reason I say this, however, is because you're relatively new to the game. Some of the really good LAG players out there can be around 40% or higher.
In deep stacked NL cash games, (or tournaments too for that matter), the cards you play PF are usually not the indication of a winning / losing player. There are far more important and skillfull rounds of betting after PF.
Posted Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:46 am GMT by Chipenstein
Appreciate your help. 
I'm reading "Small Stakes Hold ‘Em" by Skalansky et al and I started off by playing very conservatively. But after a couple of nights of bad beats from guys hanging on to 2-4 off suit and catching the river and beating my pair of kings from A-K I thought I should loosen up my game too. My reasoning is because of all the action, if I hit a nice draw it will pay off nicely.
Plus I'm learning about position and a lot of times I can see a flop in late position with only one bet, which doesn't seem like bad odds given the potential return. Also, if I can see a flop from SB for 1/2 bet, why not? Again, I'm reasoning small investment for large potential.
Am I wrong?
Posted Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:55 am GMT by Oasis
| Quote: | | Also, if I can see a flop from SB for 1/2 bet, why not? |
That isn't the correct way to see it. If you re-think this statement and play over a long period of time you will be saving yourself a lot of money.
Posted Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:01 am GMT by LeafsFan1122
Also, you typically want to be playing the opposite style as your table is. If your table is loose like you've described, the best way to combat this is to play tight.
Posted Sat Aug 26, 2006 2:26 am GMT by Chipenstein
Okay and okay.
I just folded my first SB that I could have gotten into for 1/2 bet because I had crap starting cards. Thanks for that.
And thanks for the tip about playing opposite the table - I'll have to think about that one a bit. Given my previous history, it could be that I just ran into some bad luck regarding the bad beats. I then drew the wrong conclusion as to why this was happening.
Appreciate the help!
Posted Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:12 pm GMT by Skribbles
| Oasis wrote: | | Quote: | | Also, if I can see a flop from SB for 1/2 bet, why not? |
That isn't the correct way to see it. If you re-think this statement and play over a long period of time you will be saving yourself a lot of money. |
I disagree. Out of the SB you are almost always getting good odds to call with any two cards. The only way this is a losing play is if you cannot lay down a weak hand such as TPNK.
Posted Sat Aug 26, 2006 10:55 pm GMT by lwestatbus
Hey, Chippie--I love your handle. I agree with LeafsFan about your percentage seeing the flop but also with your analysis (and therefore Skribbles) about calling from the SB, even with lousy cards, as long as there are at least two or more players plus BB in the pot. I've won some monster pots with these kinds of situations.
Sklansky, Miller, and Malmuth is golden. Unlike a lot of books they tell you why they recommend certain plays and that was a great way for me to build my understanding of the game (as opposed to memorizing someone else's playbook).
My biggest advice, though, is to stick with one plan (SM&M) and don't mess with it for at least three months--12 is even better. One of the biggest things I had to learn was just how long a streak of bad luck can last. I started out winning steadily for months. Eight or so months without a losing month (playing 0.25/0.50). Moved up in stakes and it got a little rockier but still winning. Then a disaster month. Playing the same way but just nothing would work. Back to a win last month and now up $170 this month (0.50/1.00 FL ring) as of ten minutes ago.
You can't react to swings and need enough play with a particular style of play to see steady state results. By the way, I track progress at the monthly level.
One of the biggest modifications I've made from SM&M is one you are flirting with now--loosening up starting hands with lots of money in the pot. But do this in late position, SB, or BB and bail immediately if the flop misses you. Now for my favorite story. 82 offsuite in BB. UTG raises, 5 callers!!, and I'm getting 13:1 on my money. I call and flop comes 2-2-2.
Last bit of preaching: After every session ask yourself if you won or lost because you played badly or because you were unlucky (unlucky includes other players being unreasonably lucky). Be honest with yourself. You CAN be unlucky and you should neither beat yourself up nor change your style of play if that is the case. You must have faith that in the long run correct play will be winning play.
Good Luck.
Posted Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:11 am GMT by MasterShake
| Skribbles wrote: | | Oasis wrote: | | Quote: | | Also, if I can see a flop from SB for 1/2 bet, why not? |
That isn't the correct way to see it. If you re-think this statement and play over a long period of time you will be saving yourself a lot of money. |
I disagree. Out of the SB you are almost always getting good odds to call with any two cards. The only way this is a losing play is if you cannot lay down a weak hand such as TPNK. |
But you also have to remember you are in worst position, so even if you hit your hand you'll still have to fold sometimes because someone will be ahead. What if you have 8 3 of hearts and the flop comes blank 74 of hearts. Now you get the correct odds to call and you hit the 10 of hearts. Then a blank on the river and you're up against KQ of hearts. You lost a lot of money on a hand you probably shouldn't have been in in the first place.
Posted Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:02 am GMT by Ryan_j37
I tend to not play very many hands at all from the sb. Hands such as K8 A5 i almost always fold as they are easily dominated. Basically i think its good to limp with small pairs and suited connecters as you can easily stack players when you hit. Try not to limp in ep with hands like A7 as your easily dominated. Can i ask how many of these hands you raise preflop?
Posted Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:33 pm GMT by Chipenstein
Appreciate the advice guys - I'm soaking up all of it.
Regarding how many preflops I raised, I don't know actual numbers. I suppose I should invest in some poker tracking stat software so I'll have to start researching those and get a good one. I do know that I only raise with AA, KK, AK though, so not very many at all.
I played in a 12 hand no-limit cash game at my buddies house this past Saturday night. I got up early, tightened up even more and waited until there were 3 of us left (so I'd be in the money), caught some good cards and won the thing. So far, this is my claim to fame - lol. It sure was a blast though.
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