Posted Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:16 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
PokerStars Game #6078731191: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2006/08/28 - 00:10:17 (ET)
Table 'Vindobona IV' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: albyke ($106.85 in chips)
Seat 2: Turn_Prophet ($48.35 in chips)
Seat 3: rjhomey69 ($13.20 in chips)
Seat 4: pintail12g ($31.85 in chips)
Seat 5: soalsuvivor ($34 in chips)
Seat 6: vinnyvneck ($23.45 in chips)
rjhomey69: posts small blind $0.25
pintail12g: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Turn_Prophet  
Turn_Prophet said, "no pair"
pintail12g said, "ak"
soalsuvivor: folds
Turn_Prophet said, "what else"
vinnyvneck: folds
albyke: raises $1.50 to $2
Turn_Prophet: calls $2
rjhomey69: calls $1.75
pintail12g: folds
*** FLOP ***   
rjhomey69: checks
albyke: bets $2.50
Turn_Prophet: calls $2.50
rjhomey69: calls $2.50
*** TURN *** 
pintail12g said, "that a question or a statement"
rjhomey69: checks
albyke: bets $8.50
Turn_Prophet: raises $16.50 to $25
rjhomey69: folds
albyke: raises $77.35 to $102.35 and is all-in
Turn_Prophet: calls $18.85 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** 
*** SHOW DOWN ***
albyke: shows   (a straight, Nine to King)
Turn_Prophet: mucks hand
albyke collected $98.70 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $101.70 | Rake $3
Board
Seat 1: albyke showed and won ($98.70) with a straight, Nine to King
Seat 2: Turn_Prophet (button) mucked
Seat 3: rjhomey69 (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 4: pintail12g (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: soalsuvivor folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: vinnyvneck folded before Flop (didn't bet)
No way I'm not getting stacked there unless I fold pre. Ridiculous cooler...
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Posted Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:28 am GMT by ki_cz
Why the call pre-flop?
Posted Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:40 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| ki_cz wrote: | | Why the call pre-flop? |
Because those are the types of hands that break people. Deepstacked Poker ain't all Aces and Kings.
From the button, I play a LOT of hands. My style is very risky, and you can see why. But 95% of the time, I'm stacking a guy in this situation, not getting stacked myself.
Posted Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:52 am GMT by wEbMaStEr
| ki_cz wrote: | | Why the call pre-flop? |
As he said, 6 handed, on the button, in a cash game, these kinds of calls or fine. if you hit then your opponent is left wondering wtf you could possibly have, you have to be careful that you hit hard tho, very often in these cases top pair is no good, you have to be looking at min 2 pair or as in this case the str8 draw.
This is a bad beat for you Turn, obv. not a 'bad beat' but a tough beat nonetheless. A lesson for everyone here is the importance of playing within your means.
These are the kinds of beats you need to be able to shrug off, reload and jump right back in the game. Hands like this won't happen often, but they will happen, if you're playng with your full roll at the table, you go broke here.
Disclaimer: this isn't a lecture to Turn, just a general principles lecture to everyone. 
Posted Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:04 am GMT by ki_cz
I'll definitely play 10/8os from the button, just not with a 4xbb raise coming to me. So then where do you draw the line? Is a 7/9os ok to play on the button to a 4xbb raise? 8/6, 5/4?
Posted Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:00 pm GMT by UrAteUp
108 is an easy lay down pre-flop. Never play the sucker end of a straight because you often find yourself being the sucker as in this case...  . Man DC you are starting to smell a little here...kind of like fish...
BTW this shouldn't be posted as a bad beat....this should be more like in my section.. poker hands gone bad...
Posted Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:34 pm GMT by shorn7
Diamond-
While I agree that T8o is definitely a stacker hand, this hand smells a little tilty to me (since the chat form the previous hand looks like you folded to someone who said they had AK). This is not to say that I would never call a raise with this hand...sure I would. But, i would want it to be suited and against a player who has tighter raising standards than villain here. That might sound strange, but what I want is to have this hand against someone who legitimately can't hold a hand that could make a higher str8 than mine unless there is a 4 card str8 on the board. So, I wouldn't play this hand against what appears to be a loose raiser.
After the flop though, no way you don't go broke.
Posted Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:01 am GMT by mackkie
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | ki_cz wrote: | | Why the call pre-flop? |
Because those are the types of hands that break people. Deepstacked Poker ain't all Aces and Kings.
From the button, I play a LOT of hands. My style is very risky, and you can see why. But 95% of the time, I'm stacking a guy in this situation, not getting stacked myself. |
Diamond, I like many other people on these forums really respect what you have to say and I try to apply some of your tips when Im playing. My question for you with respect to this strategy is where do you draw the line as far as chasing your straights and how much you want to call?
For example: I am assuming you do not put $5 into a $9 pot with an open ended straight draw and no flush draw?
I am sure we can come up with a million examples, but can you try to make some sort of generalization. Im just wondering your opinion on this.
Posted Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:44 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| Quote: | For example: I am assuming you do not put $5 into a $9 pot with an open ended straight draw and no flush draw?
I am sure we can come up with a million examples, but can you try to make some sort of generalization. Im just wondering your opinion on this. |
To answer this question, there's three other factors to account for:
1. How much I have behind in my stack.
2. How much my opponent has behind in his stack.
3. What is he likely to be holding?
Based on these three things, it's somewhat discretionary. I'd be willing to take 9-to-5 odds on a single card if I think that by hitting perfect I could take the 100 more that my opponent has in his stack.
I hate going into non-mathematical fuzzy logic, but in many ways it comes down to instinct. In No Limit, though, I will say that implied odds are of vastly greater importance than pure pot odds.
So to give a rough answer to your question, I'd be less apt to "chase" a draw if:
1. The other player is clever.
2. My draw is not that great.
3. My opponent is unlikely to have a hand he can go broke with.
4. My opponent is unlikely to give me a cheap turn card.
And I'd be more likely to chase a draw if:
1. My opponent plays badly (this corresponds to 1, 3, and 4 above... bad players are more willing to go broke with marginal hands like TPTK and more likely to slow down if they hit resistance).
2. I have a good draw, especially something like a concealed straight draw with a possible redraw.
Posted Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:48 am GMT by UrAteUp
I still say this isn't a bad beat but just bad luck or bad play. They call it the sucker end of a straight for a reason DC...and I guess this one found a sucker... .
By bad play I mean this hand shouldn't be played at all. So don't think I mean you play bad. You should get away from these hands or play them cheaply.
Posted Wed Aug 30, 2006 10:12 am GMT by LeafsFan1122
I really disagree with people here who say his hand was "not worth playing." In a deepstacked NL game, a good player mixes it up. When people have enough chips, unpredictability is key, and Diamond did have an excellent chance to stack someone.
Playing the hand PF should only be considered an irrelivent and small 'mistake' at the worst IMO. It is the better players who are able to switch up their play that are the most sucsessful.
Diamond got unlucky on this hand.
Posted Wed Aug 30, 2006 4:03 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| LeafsFan1122 wrote: | I really disagree with people here who say his hand was "not worth playing." In a deepstacked NL game, a good player mixes it up. When people have enough chips, unpredictability is key, and Diamond did have an excellent chance to stack someone.
Playing the hand PF should only be considered an irrelivent and small 'mistake' at the worst IMO. It is the better players who are able to switch up their play that are the most sucsessful.
Diamond got unlucky on this hand. |
Leafs if you want to stick with that arguement then any two cards are good to play in Texas Holdem, which we all know isn't true. The thing that makes these cards so bad to play is because most times when you do make the straight, you end up the baby end of a straight. Not the big winning end like you really think you might have. Best to just lay these types of hands down because they often cost you when you find out your on the wrong end.
Posted Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:07 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I must strenuously disagree with UrAteUp. I never espoused an "any two card" approach to the game, but neither do I agree with the idea of always folding draws to the low end of straights (or folding even POTENTIAL low end straights). Doing so will cost you a LOT of money. 9 times out of ten, a baby straight is still a much better hand than your opponents', especially if you face only one opponent.
I don't think sitting back and waiting for big hands is wrong. It's a money making strategy, and it's quite effective for slowly winning money. But I personally find the TAG style very boring to play, and playing a lot more hands, assuming you're significantly better than your opponents, can make you much MORE money.
It just means that things like this will happen from time to time. But I've already made back that buy-in plus 5 more in the last few days by playing "bad cards" like T8, 65, J7, and A2. AND playing all those extra hands made it much better to get paid off on my premium hands like Aces and Kings, because the LAG never has a hand, right?
Posted Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:38 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Respecting a CO raise in 6-max is nitty at best vs most players.
And that we believe our straight to be good is pretty much a no-brainer, we're not deep enough to start worrying about the sucker end, so that's not even worth discussing.
Personally I raise the flop here, and I don't have problems jamming it quite hard either.
Posted Sat Sep 02, 2006 10:21 am GMT by UrAteUp
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | I must strenuously disagree with UrAteUp. I never espoused an "any two card" approach to the game, but neither do I agree with the idea of always folding draws to the low end of straights (or folding even POTENTIAL low end straights). Doing so will cost you a LOT of money. 9 times out of ten, a baby straight is still a much better hand than your opponents', especially if you face only one opponent.
I don't think sitting back and waiting for big hands is wrong. It's a money making strategy, and it's quite effective for slowly winning money. But I personally find the TAG style very boring to play, and playing a lot more hands, assuming you're significantly better than your opponents, can make you much MORE money.
It just means that things like this will happen from time to time. But I've already made back that buy-in plus 5 more in the last few days by playing "bad cards" like T8, 65, J7, and A2. AND playing all those extra hands made it much better to get paid off on my premium hands like Aces and Kings, because the LAG never has a hand, right? |
DC in my reply to leafs, I was not trying to say you thought or anyone thought that you or anyone else on this forum, for that matter, would play any two cards just because.
I do think there is strength in playing certain cards when given position and with a favorable flop. My whole point to my remarks was just the fact you did not have the nut hand and should have possibly laid it down to the all-in move by villian.
Posted Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:12 pm GMT by Truffle
10 8 is a good hand to see a flop with, especially suited, in a cash game. I suffered last night with a baby straight and I dont consider it a bad beat or even a cooler, more like a refusal to fold when I knew I was beat, because I had a pretty good idea he had me beat. But what made it worse was that I was on a straight flush draw and come to find out he was also on a straight flush draw.
I started with 5  6 and he started with 10 J . Flop comes out 7 8 9 
I couldnt exactly fold there even though I had an idea he had 10J I just couldn't put him on 10J of spades. I stayed in and lost alot of money :/
Learned a lesson though.
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