AA or KK UTG... What do you do preflop? |
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Posted Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:06 pm GMT by BeerWench13
I finally got a chance to play a bit more recently and this question has been running in my head for the last few weeks.
How do you play AA or KK UTG in a cash game. I know a lot depends on the type of players at your table, your stack size, your image, etc., but I'm trying to get a basic idea of what you guys think is the best way to play these hands from EP.
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
P.S. I've missed you guys! Three more weeks of hell left for me...
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Posted Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:12 pm GMT by mooseontheloose
Not sure exactly what you mean.
But, come in for a raise, no reason to slowplay (unless maybe you KNOW a raise will come behind you). Raise whatever you need to in order to knock out most of the players and isolate 1-2 people; 3-5xBB is standard, but if you have a loose table you may have to bet more. The flop will obviously determine where you go from here, but a continuation bet is almost always in order.
Sorry if that isn't what you were asking, wasn't totally clear. Playing AA/KK from any position demands aggressive play, passive moves will often leave you with cracked Rockets.
Posted Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:12 pm GMT by mackkie
In early position ill just call at a really aggressive table and let someone raise and have a few callers, then I will re-raise.
Generally speaking tho I cannot live with myself If i slow play AA or KK and lose to 83o and have the big blind hit 2 pair. I will raise 4 or 5x the big blind for the most part. But then again, thats my usual raise when I have something so I am not really giving anything away when I raise that much.
Posted Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:13 pm GMT by MasterShake
95% of the time I raise. I may vary my raise slightly, but it's usually 3-5 times the big blind. If I'm at an agressive table with looser players to my left, I'll limp, but very rarely.
Posted Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:19 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Raise, if re-raised I call versus some players, raise others.
Posted Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:21 pm GMT by BeerWench13
I guess the question was a little vague, but I'm getting good responses. Basically, I've talked to people who say to only make a small raise and others who say pop it and protect that beautiful hand. I've done both though I don't believe I've ever limped with them. At least a min bump if not more.
I've run into a few situations online recently that have lead to this question. In one instance, I had a bettor at the table that would always reraise any raise preflop and was a guaranteed bettor on the flop. I min-bumped UTG with KK and got rewarded handsomely with this player's entire stack. The same occurred at another table, however it became a raising war preflop and my KK lost to AQo.
I'm just trying to get an idea of what a good amount would be from this position. I'm leary of slowplaying and getting cracked, but a good player knows that someone raising from UTG usually has a hand.*
*Disclaimer: This is based on the good player viewing you as a good player as well.
Posted Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:46 pm GMT by wEbMaStEr
utg raises... this could lead to a whole other thread for me because it's something which i see more and more frequently, particularly later in tourneys. Recently I saw 5 utg raises in a row because they wanted to try steal the blinds before it gt to them. It's getting to the point now where if someone raises from utg I will give them NO respect.
In cash games it's different because the blinds don't go up so I would give a utg raise more respect.
With AA utg you really can't risk limping, min raising is bad enough (I did this recently and tripled up) basically if someone else has a hand to raise to your limp with... chances are they are at least gonna call your raise, and you avoid all the 83os hitting etc.
I am actually quite wary if i see someone limp in from utg, If they limped and i raise and they reraise... it's gonna be v. hard for me to go any further.
As for KK & raising wars... I gotta see if there's an a on the flop before i commit it all. 1 too many A2 beats ya know? 
Posted Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:54 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Well, raising small with these hands (like 2x raises etc) is usually a bad idea. These hands aren't easy to fold and by raising small we are offering excellent implied odds versus ourselves.
Basically with strong hands any betting strategy should maximize the money we get in while ahead and minimize the amount we have left when we are behind.
An 'extreme' example:
Let's say we raise AA to 90 BBs with a 100BB stack, and get a caller. As long as our opponent does not have AA, this call looses him alot of money. Now we can profitable call anything on the flop, it doesn't matter. Our opponent will not make up what he lost edge-wise preflop when the flop comes.
In this example our entire AA playing strategy has made an exceptionally easy to play hand where we never have to worry about being ahead.
Another extreme example:
Let's say we limp with AA and plan to get it all in on the next streets while ahead. Now we must make an extremely difficult decision on the next streets if we face aggression, and our opponent can easily make up edge-wise what he lost preflop when the flop comes.
In this example our entire AA playing strategy has led to what may become an extremely difficult hand to play where we always has to worry about being ahead.
Ofcourse, these are extreme examples, we would 'never' play like this. But the point is simple: Don't make difficult decisions on later streets and don't offer high implied odds versus your own hand, because then you are forcing your opponent to play correctly.
Posted Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:55 pm GMT by groton
raise KK harder then an AA Raise
In my eyes I will Raise KK 4-5 Times UTG on a avg table a Loose Weak Table I might only Raise 2-3Times the BB to get a reraise.
AA 2-5Times depending on the table.
But with AA I want an AX to call with KK i dont want a AX to call
Posted Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:15 pm GMT by shorn7
I would say 95% of the time with AA raise, and 100% of the time with KK. I only limp with AA when there is someone very aggressive at the table that I have seen raise limpers frequently as then perhaps I can trap some dead money in the pot with a re-raise between us.
As I have said many times, these are great hands but dangerous since unless you have AA against KK or QQ, you are the one that is likely to get stacked. Therefore, it is best to try and limit the field to 1 or 2 players to decrease that likelihood. Best way to do that is to raise with them, anywhere from 3-6x the blinds depending on what the table has been like. I am more than happy to get it all in with both of these hands preflop against most players, so I might as well be the one to fire the first salvo.
Posted Tue Aug 29, 2006 3:06 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
First off, welcome back Wenchie, we missed you!
When it comes to getting AA or KK in the early positions, especially UTG, a lot depends on the texture of the table.
If the table is overly aggressive and my image is either non-rocky or irrelevant, I'm more likely to try the limp-reraise, particularly if players commonly make oversize raises and other players make bad overcalls. For instance, I regularly see a raise to $15 in a $1/$2 NL game at a local casino, followed by one or two calls. If I've limped from early position with AA, I can now put in a nice solid raise to $60-$100 to punish their foolishly oversized raises. If the table is loose and pretty aggressive, I'd advocate a mix of perhaps 20% calls and 80% raises, probably in the neighborhood of 4x-6x the BB. The looser the players are, I'd shoot more for the 6x BB raise than the 4x. With KK, I'd probably be slightly more apt to raise than try the limp-reraise, especially if players call too much.
By contrast, if the table is reasonably tight, I probably raise with these hands 90-95% of the time, and use the limp-reraise only as an occasional tactic to prevent them from getting a read on my hands. Again, I'd shoot for bigger raises (4x - 6x the BB depending on the players behind you), both for value and to thin the field. I know some people will tell you not to raise more based on the value of your hand, but this is pretty stupid in my book because you can give up a lot of money that way. All you need to do is vary the amount of your raises from time to time to confuse your opponents.
A few other points.
-Don't try to inflate the pot too large pre-flop (although raise enough to deny opponents high implied odds), particularly with KK. You want to be able to get out cheaply if an A flops.
-If you're going to try the limp reraise at all, you MUST have other hands you limp with UTG, or you'll simply give your hand away. In games where I have 80 BB or more, I often like to limp from UTG with small pairs, suited Aces, and the better suited connectors. This is a wide enough range that if I limp with AA or KK I won't automatically give my hand away. In games with better players, you may also want to VERY sparingly try a limp re-raise with AK or QQ to widen the range of hands your opponent may call with unprofitably.
-In any case, if you limp and someone fails to raise, play the pot very cautiously, unless you flop a set (which is awesome, because your hand is ultra-concealed). Do not make the mistake of inflating the pot so large that you make bad calls with an overpair, because clever LAG players can often trap you for all your chips on what look like very benign boards. Probe the pot a little bit, and if you face serious resistance, try for a cheap showdown or get out while you've invested very little. If you're a good player, there will be plenty more profitable situations--don't feel (like many bad players) that you must FORCE value out of your high pairs because you're afraid of "wasting" them. That's often a recipe for going broke.
-Sometimes if you limp from early position and a single opponent behind you raises and knocks everyone else out (and the last action is to you), sometimes call. This will often prompt your opponent to overplay his hand on the flop because he mistakes your call for weakness--a good check-raise or stop-and-go on a later street can make you a lot of money, especially since you're against a single opponent with a narrowed hand range. Again, you must have other hands in your limp/call range to make this play work without giving away your hand.
Posted Wed Aug 30, 2006 6:40 am GMT by UrAteUp
Aggressive table, just limp in and re-raise the original raiser. Push on a favorable flop.
Tight table, raise 3-5xBB. If re-raised then call.
Long and short of it is about protecting a hand but don't get so attached that it costs you your chip stack.
Great to see you post Wench. I know several here will agree, you are missed....  ...as any good friend would be.
Posted Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:05 pm GMT by MasterShake
I've been noticing a trend over the last couple of days (and it's costing me money) of people UTG limping with premium pocket pairs. KK and QQ especially.
Posted Wed Aug 30, 2006 2:08 pm GMT by Geno
Is this question aimed at limit or no limit? If it's limit it couldn't be more of a no-brainer but if it's limit, I'm out
Posted Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:31 pm GMT by BeerWench13
I was referring to no limit. I don't play fixed limit. Sorry, I forget it exists on occasion.
Posted Thu Aug 31, 2006 1:33 am GMT by groton
no problem babe alot of people forget about FL
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