Posted Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:09 am GMT by MasterMike
Two times ive seen a guy call a lot of money on j 10 suited and win a massive pot where he has had to call large amounts preflop.
This was in a home game so i dont have perfect records of this in my head.
Blinds at 25-50 and I think J 10 guy had last position.
Just to give everone names..
7-8 handed
Cam raises to 1.25
Tom pushes all in raising it 3-4 bucks (cant quite remember)
Chris calls.
Cam calls.
Now i realize that with chris calling, all cam has to do is call 3-4 bucks to win 10+ dollars, but with two guys before him who already called, are suited connectors smart to play??
Flop: xxx
Turn: completes Cam's straight.
River: Cam goes all in.
Wins with a straight, chris had pocket kings, other guy lost as well.
My question is, should cam have called the 3-4 dollar raise with 2 other people in the pot?
Another time..
4 handed (forgot to add that in)
Cam raised 1.25
Me: raises that 3 dollars with pocket queens knowing he can play those suited connectors/any connectors
Kev calls the 3 bucks (he only had K J suited which i dont think he should have done because now the odds are better for cam to call)
Cam calls
Flop: 3 10 10
I am beat, he puts me all in, i fold.
I realize Cam had to get fairly lucky to beat KK and QQ, but was that a smart move given the info i presented to call at those times? Or was it just a tough beat.
Ive tried to open up my preflop card selection to include suited connectors. But i only feel that you should play them if you are in position or if you sense weakness in others. If not, i think you should either fold or get in cheaply. I am kinda confused on this issue.
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Posted Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:16 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Suited connectors (JT being the best because it contains the best cards that can still form the top and bottom of a straight) do very well in multi-way pots and in pots with high implied odds, but overall, they have very poor showdown value (ie all-in pre-flop confrontations)--while they usually have the best odds vs. overpairs, their overall showdown value is relatively poor.
I think Cam's plays were both pretty poor. I prefer to limp in or call small raises (and occasionally make small positional raises as a randomizing agent) with suited connectors when stacks are deep, hoping to flop a big draw and win a big pot while paying a minimal cost on the early streets where better hands have the equity advantage. When stacks are shallow, suited connectors lose most of their value because implied odds go down significantly (paying 3 or 4 bucks to win 100 = good. Paying 3 or 4 bucks to win 10 = bad).
Posted Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:43 am GMT by MasterMike
Yea i thought the same way. These are two examples, but something similar to this happens quite a bit when someone like cam has these suited connectors. I guess its because i know quite a few people that will stick with them even with bad odds. Im still not sure what i should do with people like that.
Because if they are on a draw and i force them out, i will generally win small-medium amounts of money. But, if they stick with it, and i get my two pair busted by an 8 on the river, i will lose a large pot because i tried to force them out of the draw which they caught. I know what they are doing many times is stupid, but im not sure what to do when i have them/ playing against them..
Posted Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:57 pm GMT by Ryan_j37
| MasterMike wrote: | Yea i thought the same way. These are two examples, but something similar to this happens quite a bit when someone like cam has these suited connectors. I guess its because i know quite a few people that will stick with them even with bad odds. Im still not sure what i should do with people like that.
Because if they are on a draw and i force them out, i will generally win small-medium amounts of money. But, if they stick with it, and i get my two pair busted by an 8 on the river, i will lose a large pot because i tried to force them out of the draw which they caught. I know what they are doing many times is stupid, but im not sure what to do when i have them/ playing against them.. |
Most of the time you dont want to force people of draws. Just make them make the biggest mistake by calling. I.e not giving them the pot or implied odds. Youl make money over the long run this way. Also you can mix it up and if there draw has obviously missed on the river you can check and try to induce a bluff.
Posted Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:19 am GMT by Oasis
I agree, stacks should be deep to play connectors because in the event that you hit, you want to be paid enough so as to make up for all the times you miss. If the stacks are small, even if you hit you and win all of villians chips you still may not see a worthwhile profit in the long run.
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:49 pm GMT by pokeradvocate
The difference between an advanced player and a pro-level player lies in playing these type hands. The advanced player understands that J-10s called against a 3x blind raise is poor actual pot odds heads up. And he folds. The pro player looks at the implied odds, understands who his opponent is and what he raises with and most likely calls in that situation.
Why? simple. The pro player is not looking to win every pot he plays, he's looking to win one pot that will break his opponent. To do this, your opponent must have a hand he is willing to go broke on and the pro must have a hand that beats him.
A guy who limps in with A-A will fold to a big reraise with a board of 7-8-9 b/c he knows he let the straight draws in cheap. But a guy who raises his A-A and gets one caller will assume his opponent missed on a flop of 7-8-9. He will bet the whole way often if you let him. Hell, even if he only has A-K, he has put himself in a position of having to fire at the flop by his preflop raise. You have implied odds to call with suited connectors in no limit so long as your opponent's stack is large enough to justify it. If you hit, slow-play the guy and clean him out. If you miss, you lost 3-4 bucks.
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