Posted Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:57 pm GMT by Phil14312
I have 3  3  in the SB. 6/12 live, 4 limpers, I call, BB checks.
Flop: 2  3 4
I check, BB bets (he will bet a lot of hands here, pairs, overpairs, any draw pretty much), loosey-goosey calls, 2 folds, another caller, I call.
Turn: A
Whats your move? And do you agree/disagree with flop play.
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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:10 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
You certainly could have check-raised the flop, but then you would almost certainly have to lead on the turn, which I would hate here. Calling the flop with the intention of check-raising the turn is perfectly acceptable too (although probably not on this board).
As it played out, I probably check/call 1 bet on the turn. Hopefully there will be a bet from the BB followed by more calls on the turn so you can close the action and hope the board pairs on the end. There is still a decent chance you have the best hand, but I certainly want to play the turn very cheaply. I don't think you can cold call if it gets to be 2 bets before it gets back to you, although you should at least have a look at the odds (as you likely have as many as 10 outs or so if you're beat... probably slightly less since there are likely some made pairs out there).
Posted Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:07 am GMT by Poto
I agree with xDiamond_CutteRx, but I bet this flop since there's was aggressor preflop.
Posted Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:38 am GMT by tame_deuces
I lead flop, because someone is bound to have a part of this.
I also lead turn, I probably don't take a raise a sign of the straight just yet.
Note that I don't play 6/12 - but this didn't seem like a rock garden.
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:34 pm GMT by Phil14312
Leading flop is bound to not protect my hand, so I chose to check/call, c/r or bet out a safe turn card, however, the turn is not safe. I check, planning to call and pair the board. BB bets again and no one calls but me.
River
A
Now whats our action?
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:40 pm GMT by tame_deuces
I wouldn't be betting to protect my hand, I'd be betting it for value. Sets play equally well multiway as they do HU. Your opponents will exceptionally rarely be drawing to enough combined cards to make betting with a set unprofitable.
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:49 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
It depends on what you think he has. If you put him on 2 pair, then bet out. IF you put him on the straight or a bluff, check raise. I prolly check raise since he didnt seem to mind the ace hitting on the turn.
The only thing hes worried about is if you have a flush. unless thats what hes drawing at himself.
I think the range of hands he could have here bet the river enough to make a check/raise the more profitable play. I'd say theres a good chance he has a straight or is bluffing, both of which prolly bet the river. 2 pair prolly checks behind, and may fold if you lead out anyway. Straight is definately calling a bet, but also may check behind. A bluff, obviously is only paying you off if you check to him. And a flush is definately betting river so the check raise will work.
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:54 pm GMT by Aves
any response that involves calling on the flop is incorrect (unless of course the betting is capped by the time it get backs to you)
tame is the only one in this thread on the right track
Posted Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:55 am GMT by Dave B
I bet the flop, I expect to be raised, I then 3 bet. Many MANY players simply wont fold with this flop. They will chase w/ any 2 cards hoping to hit. A bet and 3 bet from the blind looks like a draw or 2 pair.
I then bet out on the turn, I might not be ahead to a 5, but I have outs, I can eliminate some people from chopping if a 5 hits a wheel on the board and I am still disguising my hand a bit.
River boat, a bit of a sucker boat, because anyone hanging around at this point could have A2 A3 A4. So I check raise here. Anyone with an ace or 5 will bet, if they 3 bet me I make a crying call. If I bet out here and am raised, do I 3 bet? Not likely because I dont want to be 4 bet if I am a loser. If I bet out on the flop, who will simply call here that would just check if I check and not bet for me?
Posted Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:34 am GMT by suitedaces84
Protecting your hand can never be as good as value betting your hand. I don't have time to offer an explanation now, but I'll explain this later today.
The idea of waiting for the turn to protect your hand is not correct for the reason given above. The idea of waiting for the turn to push a larger edge and push it for a bigger bet can be correct. Don't confuse the two.
Posted Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:42 pm GMT by Phil14312
I guess my flop play butchered the hand pretty bad. Oh well, I should've just bet it out but nooo, I gotta go for the c/r then the guy on my left bets into multiple callers. Thanks for the input.
I check/raised the BB, he 3-bet and I wanted to puke, I called and he showed A2. Not horribly played by him, but badly played by me. Live and learn.
Posted Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:09 pm GMT by suitedaces84
The first thing to understand is that the EV of a value bet that gets called does not depend on pot size. If you bet into a huge pot with a strong hand and your opponent calls correctly with a gutshot you gain exactly as much as you would have if you bet into a tiny pot with a strong hand and your opponent called incorrectly with a gutshot. Note that the EV of their call does depend on the size of the pot.
The next thing to understand is the EV of forcing someone to fold. For simplicity:
-let A = the EV of a value bet that gets called correctly by a draw
-let B = the EV of a value bet that gets called incorrectly by a draw
-let C = the EV of a value bet that gets correctly folded to by a draw
We know two things:
1) A = B (as stated above, I can explain this further if anyone doesn't get it)
2) B > C (all this says is you'd prefer that your opponents call when they should fold)
We can combine these two equations to learn something valuable:
A > C
This should explain why schooling does not hurt a good player and why you should raise strong hands preflop. In fact, not only does not raising good hands preflop cost you on that street, but it will cost you for the remainder of the hand. Instead of thinking of forcing your opponents to fold think of forcing them to call.
As for your hand, you should raise the flop for several reasons:
-You'll only want to put in multiple bets on a good turn and if the turn is good for you there's a chance it will get checked through. If the bb holds a 5 he may not bet again on a blank turn, so everyone gets off the hook.
-You're probably up agaisnt a bunch of weak over card type draws that will fold on most turns so now is your best chance to get any value.
Posted Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:18 pm GMT by Phil14312
As I've re-evaluated my game after that session, I think I really have to nail this part down, the whole betting for value vs. protecting my hand. Sometimes I'm far too obsessed with protecting my hand than I should be.
Posted Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:28 pm GMT by 1988 TR
Don't beat yourelf up over this. At not point in the hand is that guy folding (Although he shouldn't be in pre flop).
I bet the flop & call a raise (only to check raise him after seeing the turn). I check the turn if the 5 or flush comes. I bet (or check raise)when the Ace comes & call a raise. I bet my boat on the river & call a raise & think about re-raising depending on opponnent.
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