Hacking and Cheating at Online Gambling? |
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Posted Sun Apr 11, 2004 3:51 am GMT by Avatar
Is it possible that someone can develop a hack for some of these poker rooms software, and make it so they can see the other player's hands?
I used to be a big gamer in online games and there were always hacks out that changed the game. Ie - Playing Starcraft, I could only see my part of the map, but my opponent, who had a hack to the software could view the entire map - his and my screen.
How safe are the software of sites like partpoker, pokerroom, UB, etc., from hackers?
Are programs already out, and we don't know about it?
Thoughts?
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Posted Sun Apr 11, 2004 4:04 am GMT by sergestorms
i highly doubt there are cheating programs out there, but with some of the calls and bets ive seen people make i don't believe it is impossible heh
Posted Sun Apr 11, 2004 11:14 am GMT by cayouche
Taken from http://teamfu.freeshell.org/online_poker_cheating.html:
"Coming from a computer background, I have a good knowledge of how most software applications are written and how server software operates. My assumption would be that Party Poker only sends to your computer data about the board and your hand. Only at showdown does it actually send data about other players to your computer. Sending the data for each player would be a completely insane approach in terms of security- and any good programmer would know not to write a server in this fashion. You can say your computer is on a "need to know basis" when it comes to poker data. Because of this, there is no feasible way to cheat because you are only limited to the amount of data you have on your computer. There is also close to a zero perecent chance of being able to send data to online poker servers that would have you magically win a hand or get cards of your choosing. It would take deliberate coding on the part of the online sites to have this happen- and again, it would not be in their best interests (or so we hope)."
Posted Sun Apr 11, 2004 1:24 pm GMT by Absolution
Ya that sums it up. The only way someone could cheat that way is if they hacked the servers. It's also not some little video game. It's very structured and since it actually means something (money), they are much more serious about security. Don't try and compare them and don't play if you're underage. 
Posted Sun Apr 11, 2004 4:26 pm GMT by Avatar
| Absolution wrote: | | Ya that sums it up. The only way someone could cheat that way is if they hacked the servers. It's also not some little video game. It's very structured and since it actually means something (money), they are much more serious about security. Don't try and compare them and don't play if you're underage. |
Thanks for the great reply cayouche.
In reply to Absolution's post, you were probably just trying to be humerous, so thats ok, but I think my concern was a worthy concern by anyone who puts their money into online gaming.
In response to your "some little video game", I was a professional gamer in 1999, and made a little over $30,000 U.S. gaming online that year. And was only in high school at the time. Not bad for some little video game. :D
And I am 21 years old now. So yes, I am of age.
Posted Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:50 pm GMT by JohnnyCache
You could compromise the computer of another player, if you played them regularly . . .
I think the easiest way of cheating online would be collusion.. . .
Posted Sun Apr 11, 2004 9:55 pm GMT by cayouche
| Avatar wrote: | | (...)but I think my concern was a worthy concern by anyone who puts their money into online gaming.(...) |
Not only online gambling, but anything that has to do with money and/or credit cards on the Net. Many are afraid of PayPal, eBay, and other sites that deal with money/credit cards.
On that site (link above), there's a link on the left about general online cheating, very interesting...
Posted Mon Apr 12, 2004 1:19 am GMT by thecadman
Not sure why they were cheating in play money, but there really isn't any other explanation unless they were a ringer bot being used... but a ringer bot in play money??? come on!
There was a player who always seemed to know what everyone had and what was about to come and nobody could ever win a hand against them. They would go all in when they paired a 2 on the board and catch their second pair on the turn or river against AA or KK paired. Flush draws and straights were non stop and this guy always had the nut end. He would fold here and there, but also would go all in with complete trash and pair both cards, get his flush or straight. It was absolute insanity and I stuck around and watched for quite some time just folding most every hand and playing only the premium hands just to see him snag em with 36o. People would come and go from the table in a matter of 10 hands because this guy would clean them out. He ended up with over 2 million before I couldn't stand watching anymore and left the table.
Watched a similiar miracle situation happen again, but I stuck around a lot less sicne I had already witnessed the whole scene once before.
I have no other explanation other then cheating and "It was just their day" isn't going to work!
Posted Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:16 pm GMT by Avatar
This suspected cheater had 2 million what? Real Dollars? Did I mis-read that? 
Posted Tue Apr 13, 2004 10:50 am GMT by thecadman
| Avatar wrote: | | Real Dollars? Did I mis-read that? |
Yep you did, but I probably didn't make it clear enough sorry. My first sentence said it was play money.
Posted Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:50 am GMT by iloveholdem
Yes it is possible, would take a lot then a game but possible..
Posted Sun Apr 18, 2004 6:15 pm GMT by PokerGoblin
Yes it is possible, I don't know how feasible it is though. Remember it is a program, that is, nothing more than a box in a warehouse somewhere in costa rica or whereever.
Consider a few unknowns first. When you are dealt your cards, is the 52 card deck already predetermined at that point or is each card to each player a randomly generated event from a random number generator? If the deck is predetermined, it would theoritically be possible for a hacker program to be running concurrently w/ the poker program that could potentially identify the order the cards lie in the deck, once it knew the first 2 hole cards after they are identified. It is the same thing as the dude in Vegas who won a Keno jackpot buy relaying the first couple numbers revealed to his partner in his hotelroom, who was at a computer w/ a random number generator. He was busted when after he won, they learned he worked for the LV Gaming Control Board and they raided his room. He got like 3 years for that.
If each card is a newly generated event, it would be virtually inpossible to know what was coming of what someone had.
Another way to potentially hack a system is to have a program running alongside the pokersite that automatically logged in as your opponents. However they usually have safeguards that don't allow one account to be logged on from more than one ip address. Furthermore it would be complicated by the fact that you don't want to actually interact with your opponents hands (betting folding raising etc) for them, you just want their cards to be identified. Perhaps the poker program has an override that would allow a moderator or overseer to view activity at a given table... if a program could disguise itself as the moderator you could see everything?
I have no real computer programming skills along these lines, but if someone does could you let me know how reasonable these scenarios are? I've often wondered how they are written and if it is possible to hack them, and more importantly the likelyhood that my opponent has this capability.
Thats my take on the whole situation.
PG
Posted Mon Apr 19, 2004 1:43 am GMT by thecadman
| PokerGoblin wrote: | | I have no real computer programming skills along these lines, but if someone does could you let me know how reasonable these scenarios are? I've often wondered how they are written and if it is possible to hack them, and more importantly the likelyhood that my opponent has this capability. |
Anything that is programmed can be hacked eventually. It's only a matter of time. That's why you do see cardrooms making constant upgrades to their software. However, hackers always seem to be ahead of the game. Keep in mind also that hackers who were convicted of severe hacking crimes are now being hired left and right by major companies to help protect them against other hackers. What a crazy world.
Posted Sat May 22, 2004 2:53 pm GMT by grandmaster_2b
poker expert here
i have an interesting answer that ive rather discuss via email
grandmaster_2b@yahoo.com
Posted Sat May 22, 2004 7:22 pm GMT by Fat Tony
| grandmaster_2b wrote: | poker expert here
i have an interesting answer that ive rather discuss via email
grandmaster_2b@yahoo.com |
i'd rather you discussed it in the forum, or if you prefer, by pm thru this forum. you have too many posts begging people to e-mail you to be taken seriously by anyone here. if you want to pm me the details of what is so secret you can't discuss it in the forum, i will be more than happy to let people know if it's worth persuing or not.
Posted Sun May 23, 2004 7:23 pm GMT by Blarg
This guy is using any excuse as a reason to get in touch with him, so he can get some of your money, of course.
This guy really should be banned.
Posted Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:34 pm GMT by Çhý££ íñ thé Ãír
| Avatar wrote: | | Absolution wrote: | | Ya that sums it up. The only way someone could cheat that way is if they hacked the servers. It's also not some little video game. It's very structured and since it actually means something (money), they are much more serious about security. Don't try and compare them and don't play if you're underage. |
Thanks for the great reply cayouche.
In reply to Absolution's post, you were probably just trying to be humerous, so thats ok, but I think my concern was a worthy concern by anyone who puts their money into online gaming.
In response to your "some little video game", I was a professional gamer in 1999, and made a little over $30,000 U.S. gaming online that year. And was only in high school at the time. Not bad for some little video game. :D
And I am 21 years old now. So yes, I am of age. |
How did you make money gaming? I've been interested in doing that but don't even know where to get started.
Posted Fri Dec 17, 2004 2:36 pm GMT by FirebirdGM
I'd like to shed a few things onto the subject, if I may.
Firstly, it depends mainly on how the software used for the poker gaming is programmed.
There would be two 'main' ways, one being the smart way, the other being very stupid (Exponentially more for online play):
Firstly, you can have it so ONLY the Community and YOUR pocket cards are stored in your computer member. This safeguards against viewing other people's pocket cards. Essentially, data is transmitted as needed. For example, when your opponent shows his cards, it would send a packet to you containing the card data, and would be used from there.
Secondly, you can pre-store the data. So, when the pockets were dealt, it would store the opponent's pocket cards in your computer's memory for future use. While this would be faster (Not very, but a little), it exposes your program to being vulnerable to a memory access program which would be able to read the cards that your opponents have.
So, while it is possible, it is highly unlikely that any poker site would do it like that.
Posted Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:56 pm GMT by JohnnyCache
I'm pretty sure every room does it the smart way. . . because if you think about it, the speed gained by storing the pockets on the computer of the player would be a bit wasted by the redundancy of doing it for all ten players, and it would be less secure.
Posted Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:57 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Not that I expect anyone to believe it but I have some experience with computer security from both sides of the fence :D And as stated anything can ofcourse be hacked. My guess is that poker sites would use variants of the same security systems used by the banking industry, where the biggest threat previously actually was the hackers convincing the server machine that traffic to your machine was to be sent to the hackers machine, and at the same time removing your machine from the network with a DOS attack. Ofcourse, the situation was remedied faster than you can spell 'fiscal loss' and tight procedures of encrypted communication and secure ways of establishing connections were soon in use. Simply said, the software on your machine is probably just a client that receives information established on the server machine, the server determines the winner and simply sends the information too you that you are the winner. At the same time, your link to the server is most likely protected by pretty harsh encrypting, stopping anyone from possibly stealing it in an easy manner and say for instance, fold your hand, or possibly sniff your networking traffic to find out what hand you are holding. At the same time, I would guess the security systems they run ON and nearby the site are most likely pretty mean, making any attempt to discover/sniff out online clients (aka. you) hard too say the least.
So what does it add up too? It mean's you're biggest fear is collusion and hacker's that work from within (either at your machine or at the site's machine) with the possibility and means to add/discover an exploit to the system. To hack a system like this from the outside may ofcourse be a possibillity, but the knowledge/time/effort that would take would probably be far more fruitful to put too work in other arenas that are easier to crack. If you DO see behaviour you suspect MAY be cheating, just send a mail to the poker site. Sure they may think you are a paranoid nut, and maybe you are, but atleast you're trying to help keep the online world secure which is a damn fine cause
:D :D
Posted Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:36 am GMT by Scott1101
I can't believe this thread is back again . . .
I think I might start counting the discussions on this site. I swear the breakdown would go something like this:
online poker is rigged - 40%
where can I find freerolls/free games/penny games? - 30%
check out this "bad beat" - 20%
did I play this right? - 10%
Posted Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:11 am GMT by tame_deuces
| Scott1101 wrote: | I can't believe this thread is back again . . .
I think I might start counting the discussions on this site. I swear the breakdown would go something like this:
online poker is rigged - 40%
where can I find freerolls/free games/penny games? - 30%
check out this "bad beat" - 20%
did I play this right? - 10% |
Shrug, don't read it then. As for my note, it was not a note about rigged online poker. It was intended to give my reply to a question about the possibility of cheating by exploits of software in online poker. Which is a very valid question, if nobody cared about security in this matter, then I can promise you that that such exploits would exist. If it's one thing that is true about computer security, it is this: If there is opportunity you get opportunists, so people caring about stuff like this is the first step in enhancing security.
Computer security is NOT a question of something being secure, and then everything is bliss. Computer security is a matter of something being secure, untill someone finds a way to beat it. Because of this it is needed to be vigilant, watchful and always look for flaws in a system, to rid them of it before anyone else finds them. Let your guard down, and you are toast. If for some reason anyone does not buy this, I recommend them to browse through stories of various electronic and hacking related crimes.
That said I play online poker, but it's not like I will sit happily in my chair and think the happy-go-by thoughts that 'stuff like this doesn't happen', when I know that stuff like this MAY happen any day.
Posted Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:45 am GMT by JohnnyCache
Shrugg - his input on the matter is well intentioned and well thought out. He added new information. Let it slide.
The area of 'cheating' I'm focused on studying right now is shuffle simulation. I'm starting to think it could be done in seven card stud.
There are only so many possible shuffles, and the number of visible cards in seven card stud could narrow it down quite a bit . . .
I don't think "technical" cheating in poker - hacking and the like - is a large-scale problem. I'd be a far better scam, really, to just set up a dummy poker room and run away with the first batch of deposits...
most information crime, oddly enough, is lower-tech then people think. Hackers tend to be kind of . . . abstract. It's easier to teach a con-man a little computer savy then to teach a hacker to be a good con, IMHO.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:06 am GMT by tame_deuces
| JohnnyCache wrote: |
most information crime, oddly enough, is lower-tech then people think. Hackers tend to be kind of . . . abstract. It's easier to teach a con-man a little computer savy then to teach a hacker to be a good con, IMHO. |
Wise words indeed, fear the man on your phone/msn/mail asking you for a piece of your login-information and username for some service! 
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:49 am GMT by JohnnyCache
Fear the vory-zakone that pay beggers for mail, or the Red Lobster waitress with a coke habit. They're more likely to steal your identity then some kid that just wants to be Kevin Flynn.
Posted Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:29 am GMT by jazriel
okay, I am NOT an expert, I am NOT a software developer, I am NOT Gus bloody Hansen..... I AM, however, intelligent enough and connected enough to tell you the following:
1. Online poker is not rigged. You just play against absolute morons who call on anything and often catch it.
2. A friend of mine who has a friend... (a bloke who knows a bloke who met a bloke in a pub...) said that it is IMPOSSIBLE to predict the cards and impossible to intercept ANYTHING. The ONLY way you could see your opponents cards is if you were looking over his shoulder (do you think people like playtech didn't think of spyware when they developed the system?) It's almost like having your very own anti-spyware program when you install the software. So, not only do they protect themselves, they protect the player who MAY have spyware. Ask the guys at playtech and they can tell you that. Try it on your friend - install a trojan and see if you can see their cards whilst they play. If you can, then the bastards at playtech have lied yet again!
3. collusion is not rife - do you know how hard it is to collude successfully? And besides, do you think this happens during $5 games? Not a chance. If collusion DOES occur, it would have to be at the almost highest levels (but not quite the highest - it would be akin to counterfeiting $50 instead of $100 because $100 is too high a risk).
4. bad beats - i hate bad beats. they happen a lot on pokerroom or partypoker because of the sheer number of players who are, well... crap!
I used to think this game was sooooo rigged, until I was provided with a few snippets of info from someone who didn't want me posting nasty stuff in forums until i knew all the facts. Still, i would never put money into a site with a large number of players because you will ALWAYS be playing against idiots who call 2 4 os and catch 4 kind etc.
Anyway, that's my pov... BUT, if you want to learn to play serious, hardcore, EXCELLENT poker..... don't try and learn from online games..
Posted Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:33 am GMT by jazriel
| JohnnyCache wrote: | Shrugg - his input on the matter is well intentioned and well thought out. He added new information. Let it slide.
The area of 'cheating' I'm focused on studying right now is shuffle simulation. I'm starting to think it could be done in seven card stud.
There are only so many possible shuffles, and the number of visible cards in seven card stud could narrow it down quite a bit . . .
I don't think "technical" cheating in poker - hacking and the like - is a large-scale problem. I'd be a far better scam, really, to just set up a dummy poker room and run away with the first batch of deposits...
most information crime, oddly enough, is lower-tech then people think. Hackers tend to be kind of . . . abstract. It's easier to teach a con-man a little computer savy then to teach a hacker to be a good con, IMHO. |
ABSOLUTELY true.... beware the small sites that have dodgy accreditations. As for identity theft, it's usually really stupid people who click on really obvious emails that get their identity stolen. And hopefully we are all a little too smart for that...
Posted Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:03 pm GMT by JohnnyCache
In this world of mind-bending chaos math and at-home distributed networking, very little is "impossible" - but hacking a poker room would be very difficult.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:07 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| jazriel wrote: | | ... Still, i would never put money into a site with a large number of players because you will ALWAYS be playing against idiots who call 2 4 os and catch 4 kind etc. |
Pardon my disagreement, but that's exactly who I want to play against! The variability may be higher, but the net results should be with the better player.
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