Posted Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:14 pm GMT by Royal Flush
I have another question. This time regarding calling.
What if you're playing in a NL Hold'em game, and you bet after the flop, and someone calls you. The turn comes and again you bet, and this same player calls you again. At this point, how concerned would you be that this other player might have a better hand than you do? Lets also say you have K K.
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Posted Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:37 pm GMT by khaosanroad
it might be useful to present more specific situations. There are just way too many variables.
Ideally, you want people to call your bets and hand you their money. You just have to decide whether they are callign you because they already have you beat, or if they are hoping to get a card that will beat you.
Posted Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:38 pm GMT by Jauron
This post lacks the kind of details it would take to even begin to give advice.
Did an Ace come? What kind of board is it? What was your preflop raise and flop bet? How deep is the guys stack? How is that player playing? What was the turn and the bet? Are you in position?
You can't just ask a question, you've got to provide enough details to make it worth answering.
With what you've giving me I'd advise moving all in then punching him in the face while he thinks about the call... they rarely call when you do that.
Posted Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:46 pm GMT by khaosanroad
| Jauron wrote: | | I'd advise moving all in then punching him in the face while he thinks about the call... they rarely call when you do that. |
Now that's aggressive.
Posted Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:01 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Unless I have SPECIFIC reason to believe otherwise, I will usually interpret checks and calls as meaning what they represent: weakness.
Again, the reason to believe otherwise is entirely dependent on the player and the board, so you'll have to give me more details if you want a more detailed explanation.
Posted Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:50 pm GMT by Royal Flush
I don't remember all the details. All that I can tell you is that I had 2k going into the hand, and I was holding a K and another card which I can't remember. On the flop came K A 10, I paired my kings, and I was the first to act so I bet $300, and everyone else folded except one other player who called my bet. The turn came a 7, so again I bet, this time $1000, and again this other player called my bet. On the river came a 6, and I decided to go all in with the last of my $700, and again the other player called me. When the our hole cards were turned over, the other player had A A and I had K K.
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:10 am GMT by Jauron
On that board I slow down fast, probably. We don't remember our kicker here so we don't even know if we have a draw.
The problem with second pair on that flop is we can't even think we have the second best hand. There are a lot of hands that beat us that would be reasonable to be in the pot. Any Ace, a king with a kicker worth remembering, two pair and of course the straight.
You took a shot at the pot, I'd have slowed down after that. Also there is no point betting 1k on the turn with second pair if it only leaves us with 700 back, push, bet small or considering checking. You probably want to keep the pot smallish since you have a hand with some showdown value but it's not likely the winner or make a move and push him off the best hand.
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:40 pm GMT by Royal Flush
If I checked on the turn, I probably would have been raised big time. If I didn't raise 1k, the other player probably would have raised 1k or more. I could have made a smaller bet like 500 instead of 1k, but I'd probably would have been reraised. Then I'd have to do some quick thinking as to whether or not to call or fold. I'm assuming If I checked or bet 500 on the turn and got raised or reraised 1k or more, then this should be an indicator that I don't have the best hand, and I should lay down my hand?
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:16 pm GMT by Jauron
The only time you should be doing defensive betting is when you are on a draw or your hand is big but faces a scary board. Second pair is not nearly big enough to qualify.
You felt that if you checked villian would blow up the pot, so why continue with hand? You answered your own question really.
If the player is supper aggresive (and since he's calling here I am not sure he is) you want to have a hand worth showing down, and K's with a suspect kicker does not qualify.
But I suspect you made a pair, were afraid you'd get bluffed out so you overplayed your hand instead of controlling the size of the pot or giving yourself a chance to get away.
There is no secret indicator if your ahead or not, there are many variables and it takes playing a while to start to get a feel for it and sometimes if the player is unknown you really don't know. If you are in the habit however of betting on every street until you are broke with second pair and no kicker your game probably needs an overhaul.
I say all of this with nothing being personal, but I suspect you'd do well reading a few books and getting a better foundation to build on. It really sounds like you are missing a lot of what is going on, so even if I told you what to look for, you wouldn't see it anyways.
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:47 pm GMT by Royal Flush
I paired my kings on the flop, so the kicker issue wouldn't have come into play, because I go beat by a pair of aces. This hand happened just after I sat down, I had only played 2 hands before this all in hand, so I really didn't know how aggressive this other player was. I then left the table after this all in hand. I learned a lesson from from this hand, and hopefully it doesn't happen again.
As far as poker books are concerned, which ones would you suggest I read?
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:18 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
The "core" books I'd suggest you read are No Limit Hold'em: Theory and Practice by Sklansky and Miller; Small Stakes Hold'em by Sklansky, Miller, and Malmuth; and Harrington on Hold'em (at least volumes 1 and 2 if not all 3) by Harrington and Robertie. Those deal with most of what you'll want to know about Hold'em and should improve your game.
Another book you might want to look at if you're thinking of branching out would be Super System 2, but I think its Hold'em sections are the weakest of its 6 chapters.
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:33 pm GMT by Sid Lambert
I would suggest harrington on holdem....
for this particular hand tho, if there are 4 or so ppl who saw the flop, there is a very good chance that somebody has an ace, and since you are first to act, not only are you not expected to have an ace, but you won't know how they are going to respond to your bet....if you were last to act on the other hand, and everybody checked, taking a stab at the pot is much more advisable....but being out of position, with a big flop, nobody has a good reason to believe your bet, and you could be walking into a far superior hand...
another few important details are...was this a ring game or a tournament?...i'm going to assume that it was a sit and go....and also how big were the blinds?...i'm going to assume that the big blind was less than $100 or so....
one other little thing that may help you when talking to other ppl about hands, is that ppl are used to hearing "I had Kx, and the board was AKT", where x means an insignificant low card, rather than saying "I had KK", it makes it sound like you had 3 of a kind kings...also knowing if the board was suited or had 2 cards to a flush is handy to know...
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:04 pm GMT by Royal Flush
Thanks guys. I appreciate all your suggestions.
I was in a freeroll tourney. The blinds were 10/20.
You're saying that being the first to act is being out of position?
If I rember correctly there were 4 players including myself who saw the flop, but there were only 2 players left in the hand after I bet 300.
I don't think I should be playing in tourneys just yet, even though I'm playing in free tourneys.
What I also learned is that you need to have a lot of patience when your delt a lot crap cards that you can't do anything with.
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:26 pm GMT by Sid Lambert
if this was a play money tournament, then ppl play entirely differently because they have nothing to lose...so they tend to overplay their hands, much like you did...the proper response to this is to tighten up, wait for a genuinely good hand, and make them pay when you hit it...
yes, being first to act means you are out of position, in other words you are in the worst position, because the players who have yet to act will know more about your hand by the time they have to make a decision based on what you do...
with blinds at 10/20 and 2k to start, you have tons of chips...one way to figure this out is to calculate your "M"...it represents the number of rotations the dealer button could make before you would be blinded out if you didnt play any hands at all....so in this case, the blinds would cost you 10+20=30 in one button rotation....2000 / 30 = about 66 or so...so your M=66....if your M is over 20 there is no pressure to go crazy on any given hand...so you have plenty of time to be patient for a better opportunity...
also, w/ blinds at 10/20, i'm going to guess that the size of the pot when you bet 300 was around 80 assuming nobody raised preflop....this is a gigantic overbet on your part, making you unnecessarily vulnerable since you are risking a lot and only hoping to win a little....any bet much bigger than the pot is usually considered an overbet...if the pot was 240 or bigger you probably should've folded preflop anyhow
its definitely okay to bluff at a pot, but there are better times to do it, and if he calls one big stab like that he likely to call another given the circumstances....and the very last bet you made for 700...he pretty much had to call at that point
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:09 pm GMT by Royal Flush
Yes, I guess you can call it a play tourney, except there is a little more at stake. The first 27 players advance to the Weekly Round 2, with a prize pool of $1000. Now maybe this has no meaning whatsoever to a lot of players, but I know that I could use some extra cash without shelling out $25 or $50 to buy into a regular tourney. I know I'll probably make more money if I cash in one of these regular tourneys, but at this point I can't even make the first 27 in a play tourney. I've also played a little at the play money tables, and IMO, the play money players play a lot looser than the freeroll tourney players. They just seem to play a lot tighter. Then again, maybe it's just that my competition plays a lot tighter. I don't know.
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:54 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Generally the ebb and flow of a poker game changes the more people has to lose. Basic principles apply at all levels, but play money and freerolls play very different from even the lowest stakes games you can play for money. People don't really play poker untill a loss can be felt in some way - for some even playing for nothing can give that sensation, but for most people it doesn't.
Posted Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:26 am GMT by weirdofreek
I disagree with the poster who said betting out here is a bad play. He bet a smallish portion of his stack but still enough to get people out. After a Call however, Iwould of slowed down and kept the pot as small as possible. and folded to any signifacant bet on the turn or river. BTW betting with this board and hand outright everytime IS a bad play but once in a while I don't think it is so bad bluffing with a marginal hand instead of giving someone eles the chance and then haveing to make a (in this case easy) choice.
Posted Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:58 am GMT by bicepsforyou
I would have rasid it.
Posted Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:34 pm GMT by Moon_Child
so you had a pair of kings and he had a pair of aces after the flop? i think he called you down with Ax.. usually i would do that, I'm not willing to lay the hand down, but if i have to call all the way with my A bad kicker, i would.
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