OOP on flop with premium PP discussion |
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Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:54 am GMT by Oasis
Hi guys, I just have a question regarding play on and after the flop with high pocket pairs such as QQ when there has been a re-raise pre-flop.
I’m sorry that I do not have a specific example; I hope the small scenario I’ve created will suffice.
STT tournament. 3 or 4 rounds into play. Only 1 or 2 players have been eliminated at this point. Hero has been playing tight and it is fairly obvious to the observant players that I am playing in this manner. (However this is a low-buy in STT, after all, so we cannot expect too much from the majority of the players.) My stack is a little bit above average after taking down some pots uncontested after the flop.
Villains’ stack is similar to mine.
Consider that I am in early position, I hold two red Queens and it is folded to me. At the point, the blinds are 20/40.
I stick in 140 chips and it is folded around to the cutoff who sticks in 340 – raising me 200. The button and blinds both fold, I call and we both go heads up to the flop with me to act first.
Villain has not been very active thus far, playing a pretty tight game, without showing down any hands. Therefore, I start to think to myself what he could possibly have. I’m not sure if he would re-raise me with AK, with his position he just might do so, but I tend to think that with my tight image and EP raise of 3.5xBB he has to give me some respect, therefore I can be pretty confident with putting him on a hand such as AA, KK or QQ(which is of course less likely with my 2 queens.). Personally, if I was holding anything less then QQ’s or JJ I would of probably flat called and been pretty confident that I can see the flop without forking out any more chips and letting my position do most of the work for me. Please give me your thoughts here on what kind of range I can put a player on at this stage given his re-raise and the limited information I have on him. Or at least the things that should be going through my mind
Now to the main point of my post. In situations such as these, any picture card on the flop generally scares me out of making a bet. Is this plain silly? This is not all the time, however. Sometimes I will bet out but I am scratching my head as to what he is calling me with. If there is an over card and he re-raises me on the flop then it is a pretty easy lay down for me assuming that he a tight player, however if he just calls then that’s where my weak post-flop play rears it’s ugly head on the turn and river.
I tend to think that if an over card comes to my queen then it is likely that it helped villain in some way. Villain has already shown through his/her pre-flop action that they are interested in the hand and I find it hard to believe that I can push them out easily. I also feel that if I simply check, I am basically telling villain that he should bet. If this is the case, how can I even be sure that the flop helped him? How can I find out where I stand? If I do bet and he calls is there a possibility that he is calling with a hand that I am beating and he cannot get away from? I’m sorry for these scattered thoughts; I hope you are still following.
I’m going to give some sample flops and it would be fantastic if you could please tell me what you would do and why with each flop. I might be asking a little too much, but please give your thoughts on what villain may be holding given his/her response to my action on the flop. This seems to be one of my biggest problems; I get carried away with betting in the heat of the moment and fail to think what villain may holding.
Pot(740)
I hold Q  Q 
Flop 1: A  4 9 
Flop 2: T K A
Flop 3: 6 Q K
Flop 4: 4 T 7
Flop 5: K 4 8
Flop 6: 4 Q 8
If you have any other pertinent examples in mind that can help me with this situation or my post-flop play in general including narrowing down ranges then please feel free to share them with me.
Thank you in advance and enjoy your day!
Please discuss.
Oasis
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Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:02 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Whew, a lot of meat in this post.
Addressing the first point about reraises preflop. In low stakes games (and even higher stakes games), the first reraise does not necessarily mean Aces or Kings (but often the third raise, or second reraise does--ala TJ Cloutier), especially in position. Some players will semi-bluff here with mid-pairs (77 - TT), semi-bluff (or believe they're raising for value) with AQ or AJ, value bet Jacks, Queens, or AK, all in addition to raising for value with a bigger pair. Again, their hand is not clear, but it's obvious they have something they like. If you know your opponent is a loose player, you can push here, but you can also take a flop. The problem, being OOP, is that many flops (unless they contain a Q) will leave you unsure of where you are.
In tournament situations, where stacks tend to be much shorter compared to blinds, when you have an overpair to the board (and a good overpair at that), many times it is ok to go broke if your opponent has a bigger pair. With perhaps 1/3 your stack in the pot preflop, you simply don't have enough information often times to deduce your opponent has a bigger hand, but many times when you push you'll still be ahead. If stacks were deeper, you could perhaps make a bet to clarify the situations, but many bets will commit your stack as tournaments wear on. Certainly I think you will want to bet most flops that do not contain overcards.
Flop 1: Not a great flop for your hand. Here is where being out of position sucks. If you check, unless your opponent is a real nit, he will probably bet and you may have to fold, but again it depends on stack size. But if calling pre-flop would have put more in the pot than is in your stack (or the amounts are close), it becomes a push or fold situation and the flop is irrelevant.
Flop 2: Yuck. Probably an easy check-fold. Being OOP sucks.
Flop 3: Fantastic flop. I would probably check-raise for all my chips here.
Flop 4: A very good flop. Check-raising is one option, but I think a case can be made for betting as well. Your opponent may think this is a block bet and decide to go crazy with AK and end up broke.
Flop 5: Awful, but likely scary for your opponent as well. I'd consider leading as a bluff if you're ballsy, or otherwise check-folding. You hate to go in drawing dead or nearly so.
Flop 6: Awesome flop, and probably a good candidate to slowplay, even to the turn or river. However, if stacks aren't that big, the money will probably being going in on the flop. I would check, and if he checks behind, check the turn again. Your hand is so strong that you can wait until the river to try to get some chips if you think he may pick up a second best hand he can call with. But with so much aggression preflop, I don't think you'll have to wait long to shove in your chips.
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:25 am GMT by Jauron
| Oasis wrote: | Pot(740)
I hold Q Q
Flop 1: A 4 9
Flop 2: T K A
Flop 3: 6 Q K
Flop 4: 4 T 7
Flop 5: K 4 8
Flop 6: 4 Q 8
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Let me first say if I am OOP with a premium hand like QQ I tend to be much more aggresive preflop for all the reasons you layed out, it's hard to play the flop if a single over comes OOP. If you are in position however it becomes much easier to play, you can bet most boards.
Since we just called...
#1- I probably lead out on this flop most of the time, something safe but enough to represent the Ace. Say around 400-500 if I get raised or even miniraised I'm probably forced to fold.
#2 - Check, villian will probably bet small if he holds KK, AA or AK and depending on the price I might see another card.
#3 - Check Raise is probable here, if he has pocket Kings he's getting my money in most cases. I like this flop because AK is going to bet, and AA is going bet and something like JJ or 10 may check or make an oversized bet to try to win it. Checking here is probably our best play since we just smooth called preflop.
#4 - I will lead out on this flop nearly every time, pot sized bet. If the player comes over the top I'll consider folding but probably won't. Sometimes you are just meant to go broke if he holds KK or AA, we played it safe preflop and now we're forced to assume our hand is good most of the time.
#5 - There is nothing to like about this flop BUT if we lead out for half the pot we may scare him into folding. If villian calls I might follow up once more on the turn if another club doesn't fall, if it does I'm done with the hand. If he calls turn bet and river is a blank I probably check.
#6- Here is where I might differ from some people. I feel like leading out is our best move most of the time here. Say half to 3/4 the pot. If he has an overpair we'll likely get raised and can either reraise or smooth call knowing he'll get more aggresive every street. If he smooth calls I might check the turn or bet again about hald to 3/4 the pot depending on what comes. If an Ace or King comes I'll likely check, if a brick comes I'll just lead out again hoping he's got the overpair or stubborn with his AK.
If he folds we probably weren't going to make much anyways.
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:37 pm GMT by MrDarling
great question and I'll be following this as well
I had the exact same flop while holding A's .
I made a decent raise preflop , villain flat called. I bet the pot (more then half my chips) - villain push.
Now what?
btw , its not exactly highjacking - it follows the same lines, right Oasis ?
Posted Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:52 pm GMT by tame_deuces
To OP:
Diamond and Jauron answered your post good, so I'll just answer with some cliches:
All hands lose value OOP, and all holdings offer higher negative implied odds when we hold them OOP. Even bluffing a flopped ace to get a potential KK to fold is tricky business, because if he smoothcalls...are we going to fire again on the turn or do we credit him with strength?
So you play more carefully OOP then you do when you are in position. As for holding/folding QQ, I think it is a matter of experience and who you are playing against.
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