Suckouts or implied odds? (or both) |
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Posted Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:34 am GMT by BBQSquirrel
Hand 1
Only 3rd hand at the table so no reads.
PokerStars Game #6514605485: Hold'em Pot Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/10/04 - 05:11:38 (ET)
Table 'Thusnelda IV' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: bigscotty ($21.35 in chips)
Seat 2: MichaelMcL ($24.75 in chips)
Seat 3: P Bozz ($8.10 in chips)
Seat 4: Sasch21 ($14.65 in chips)
Seat 5: BBQSquirrel ($18.70 in chips)
Seat 7: enquire ($30.65 in chips)
Seat 8: tcroadracing ($12.15 in chips)
Seat 9: roadking1951 ($10.75 in chips)
enquire: posts small blind $0.10
tcroadracing: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BBQSquirrel  
Toxics leaves the table
roadking1951: raises $0.25 to $0.50
bigscotty: calls $0.50
MichaelMcL: folds
P Bozz: folds
Sasch21: folds
BBQSquirrel: calls $0.50
enquire said, "had QQ"
enquire: folds
tcroadracing: calls $0.25
*** FLOP ***   
tcroadracing: checks
roadking1951: bets $0.75
bigscotty: folds
BBQSquirrel: raises $1.75 to $2.50
tcroadracing: folds
roadking1951: calls $1.75
*** TURN *** 
roadking1951: checks
BBQSquirrel: checks
*** RIVER *** 
roadking1951: bets $1
BBQSquirrel: raises $7.75 to $8.75
roadking1951 said, "a2"
roadking1951: calls $6.75 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BBQSquirrel: shows (three of a kind, Eights)
roadking1951: mucks hand
enquire said, "call"
BBQSquirrel collected $21.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $22.60 | Rake $1.10
Board
Seat 1: bigscotty folded on the Flop
Seat 2: MichaelMcL folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: P Bozz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Sasch21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: BBQSquirrel (button) showed and won ($21.50) with three of a kind, Eights
Seat 7: enquire (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: tcroadracing (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: roadking1951 mucked  
Hand 2
thwinnie is a solid player, and is fairly straight-forward. I put her on a big pair and I was right.
PokerStars Game #6504580525: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2006/10/03 - 11:38:14 (ET)
Table 'Thessalia' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: BBQSquirrel ($17.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Rozzenbottel ($22.45 in chips)
Seat 3: mcdonald47 ($8.20 in chips)
Seat 4: niopp ($7.25 in chips)
Seat 5: Youngy 2 ($25.05 in chips)
Seat 6: thwinnie ($29.20 in chips)
Seat 7: Firefly6 ($26.05 in chips)
Seat 8: MrD12737 ($3.05 in chips)
Seat 9: WinterTime ($18.70 in chips)
Youngy 2: posts small blind $0.10
thwinnie: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BBQSquirrel  
Firefly6: calls $0.25
MrD12737: calls $0.25
WinterTime: folds
BBQSquirrel: calls $0.25
Rozzenbottel: calls $0.25
mcdonald47: calls $0.25
niopp: calls $0.25
Youngy 2: folds
thwinnie: raises $1.75 to $2
Firefly6: calls $1.75
MrD12737: calls $1.75
BBQSquirrel: calls $1.75
Rozzenbottel: folds
mcdonald47: calls $1.75
niopp: calls $1.75
*** FLOP ***  
thwinnie: bets $5
Firefly6: folds
MrD12737: calls $1.05 and is all-in
BBQSquirrel: calls $5
mcdonald47: folds
niopp: folds
*** TURN *** 
thwinnie: checks
BBQSquirrel: bets $5
thwinnie: calls $5
*** RIVER *** 
thwinnie: checks
BBQSquirrel: bets $5.50 and is all-in
thwinnie: calls $5.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
BBQSquirrel: shows (three of a kind, Nines)
thwinnie: mucks hand
BBQSquirrel collected $27.50 from side pot
MrD12737: mucks hand
BBQSquirrel collected $14.80 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $44.40 Main pot $14.80. Side pot $27.50. | Rake $2.10
Board
Seat 1: BBQSquirrel showed and won ($42.30) with three of a kind, Nines
Seat 2: Rozzenbottel folded before Flop
Seat 3: mcdonald47 folded on the Flop
Seat 4: niopp (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: Youngy 2 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: thwinnie (big blind) mucked 
Seat 7: Firefly6 folded on the Flop
Seat 8: MrD12737 mucked 
Seat 9: WinterTime folded before Flop (didn't bet)
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Posted Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:28 pm GMT by TheSalche
hand #1: you're implied odds here are a shot at a gutshot straight + overcard ... the straight which may not be good and instead cause you to lose money ... raise on the flop is really awkward, if you're looking for implied odds usually you call
hand #2: pretty loose preflop call, although you're getting similar pot odds to a situation where the raise is to $1, rather than $2, since the pot is bigger, you'll have to commit more chips on the flop than if the pot were smaller, seems like a good spot to fold
let me give you a better example of implied odds
board is K 6 8 rainbow, you limped preflop with 9 10s and called a 4xBB raise from a player ... lets say they have something like QQ - AA, AK, KQ
pot on the flop is 8xBB, you call a half pot sized bet so that the pot becomes 16xBB after you call
you have a 4/47 chance of hitting your gutshot, or ~9%, which means you need to make ~10x more than you called to win ... so if you're starting stacks are 50 BB + this is an okay move IF you are positive you can get you're opponents stack ... this move works better when the stacks are closer to 100BB
you're hand #2 is a good implied odds type situation .. but the stack sizes are not big enough
Posted Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:16 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Hand 1:
Was it a suckout? Yes.
Did you play the hand much better than your opponent? YES!
I really like the way you played that hand.
Hand 2:
Pre-flop is a pretty loose, and I would only call this bet if you had more chips to get out of it (with only $15 behind, your implied odds aren't nearly as good). But given what you know, I think folding on the flop is pretty clear. You have top pair with no kicker, a gutshot, and a backdoor flush draw. The guy just bet half your stack into the pot, and it looks overwhelmingly like he has an overpair. Now implied odds hardly factor in at all--you can only call for value, which I don't think you had. You came into this pot hoping to flop a big draw, or two pair or better--you didn't do that, so it was time to fold. You made a bad call here and got lucky, but it happens to all of us from time to time.
And just for future reference, rebuy to the full amount when you get knocked down. If you're going to play for implied odds, as I believe any good NL player should, you want to maximize your return on the marginal situations.
Posted Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:35 am GMT by fiezk
Hand 1: Pre flop is lose, especially when you said you had no reads. Playing marginal hands with position requires a lot of hand reading ability. If you raised the flop because you thought your opponent was weak, then ok. It's still a suck out, but at least then the play was understandable.
Hand 2: You can't play SC and small pairs for implied odds when you have less than 40bb in your stack. If you think you have the best hand pre flop, call or raise, if not, muck. On the flop you're about 40% to win against villains likely hand (big pp), but I like just calling here as one player is already all-in.
Posted Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:49 pm GMT by BBQSquirrel
| fiezk wrote: | Hand 1: Pre flop is lose, especially when you said you had no reads. Playing marginal hands with position requires a lot of hand reading ability. If you raised the flop because you thought your opponent was weak, then ok. It's still a suck out, but at least then the play was understandable.
Hand 2: You can't play SC and small pairs for implied odds when you have less than 40bb in your stack. If you think you have the best hand pre flop, call or raise, if not, muck. On the flop you're about 40% to win against villains likely hand (big pp), but I like just calling here as one player is already all-in. |
Here are what I'm thinking.
Hand 1. A8s on the button against a min raise, I don't think it's an unreasonable call. I don't think too highly of people who min-raise preflop. The flop bet, yes, I wanted to see if he was weak, but after he called I had to put him on a medium-high PP like 99 to JJ. I considered the Ace and 2 legitimate outs for me.
The turn, I recognized it as additional outs. No point betting here......If he didn't fold on a board of 345 he prolly wouldn't fold on 3458 either. I took my free card, and the river was golden. There's no way he put me on trip 8s.
Hand 2. Preflop call was very loose, but it was a multi-way pot on a loose table. On the flop I thought I had 9 outs, I had to call $5 to win ~23, which is a bit worse than 9/47, but I was banking on my opp. unable to lay down her big hand. Turns out that some of my outs were corrupt (b/c of the short stack). Luckily enough I hit another 9 on the turn and doubled up the rest of my $10+.
How about this one?
http://www.pokerhand.org/?532403
I was looking to bluff all-in on the turn when I actually hit something.
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