raise, re-raise, re-re-raise, then...........re-re-re-raise! |
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Posted Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:50 pm GMT by jimmer
I feel a bit of a donk for asking this question.
I've noticed on three occations over the past two weeks the same situation, all three times with different players, on differnet tables.
Player in early position calls the blind bet, so does some player in middle. Then the player in late, raises, The SB and BB fold, then the player in early, (who originally limped) re-raises.
(On one occation the player in middle position then re-raised the player in early), late then just calls.
Now, using the player in early position as an example.
I'm treating him as a weak in-experienced player, who tried to limp in with a good hand (which should of been raised first time), and then realises he can win a decent pot, preflop, hence the re-raise.
As I was an observer on all three occations, all i did was watch.
How would you guys preceive this player?
What notes would you make on him?
Would you,(and if so) how would you adjust your game to maximize the money you could potentally make from him?
The whole thing doesn't add up to me, but I'm unsure why.
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Posted Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:54 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
um... its called mixing up your play. Occasionally its good to limp with AA if you you're playing against an aggressive opponent who likes to raise in late position..
You can't draw too many conclusions for one hand... If you notice that they do this on a number of occasions tho, if you ever have a decent hand and they limp in, raise them a small ammount. If you get reraised big you can fold, if they smooth call you can be pretty sure they're on some sort of drawing hand.
Posted Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:18 pm GMT by ninetensuited
i limp w/ AA in EP probably 80% of the time
Posted Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:28 pm GMT by jimmer
| ninetensuited wrote: | | i limp w/ AA in EP probably 80% of the time |
Even at the risk of getting 3-4 callers?
Posted Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:46 pm GMT by Ryan231
| jimmer wrote: | | ninetensuited wrote: | | i limp w/ AA in EP probably 80% of the time |
Even at the risk of getting 3-4 callers? |
80% is a bit high, but UTG works if you have the ability to release an overpair on a scary flop. I've won a lot of nice pots when the flop comes K-x-x and someone holding KQ can't get away because he can't put me on AK with the limp, or KK-AA.
Posted Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:17 pm GMT by snoogins47
| jimmer wrote: | | ninetensuited wrote: | | i limp w/ AA in EP probably 80% of the time |
Even at the risk of getting 3-4 callers? |
There's this thing somebody figured out once, where AA is like, a strong hand.
I don't quite understand the weird mindset people have about raising/betting being so drastically different from calling/limping. We're still getting X% of each dollar put into the pot, whether or not we happened to be the final aggressor on whatever street we're dealing with. I know somebody will spout some weird "you don't want people to draw out on you" line here, but I assure you that I'm not saying limping/calling/slowplaying/all the evils of the THP world are always correct, and I assure you I know that AA can lose, and loses more with more people in the pot.
Anyway, that's my mini rant. To answer the original question: there's not many conclusions we can make at all, other than we may have to respect his EP limps a tad more. Limp-re-raising with big pairs is frighteningly common, almost standard for a lot of players, and works pretty well in a lot of situations. I think generally I'd be more inclined to assume that somebody who LRRs has at least a reasonable amount of playing experience.
Posted Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:27 pm GMT by Phil14312
Is this limit or no-limit?
Posted Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:31 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Limping 80% of the time in EP with AA is HORRIBLE unless your game is so aggressive that someone is raising preflop on over 90% of the hands (and if so, your move is almost a dead giveaway). I'd say a mix of 80-85% raises and 10-15% calls is much better.
Posted Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:46 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
The thing I like is when the guy with AA is the 3rd or 4th person to limp in. That always gets me. Especially when they make the ill fated raise on the turn or river into an obvious straight/flush board.
Posted Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:53 am GMT by khaosanroad
I'll occasionally limp AA from early position with the intention of reraising or calling a raise, but I'll never limp with it from late position if people have already limped in ahead of me.
The people with pocket pairs and suited connectors will usually call a raise if they already limped in, but the players with KT off suit will probably fold.
Posted Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:47 am GMT by jimmer
| Phil14312 wrote: | | Is this limit or no-limit? |
No limit
Posted Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:13 am GMT by jimmer
I'm still unsure on some of these answers.
I think Harrington describes this move as the "squeeze play"??????
I have so resepct most of you on this forum and my poker has improved dramaticly from your advice and opinions. However;
I can understand re-raising from early position with one other player, but two or more, .......mmmmm.
to conclude; you have opened my mind some of your answers and i was deffinately looking at this a bit "narrow minded". I'm going to give it more thought and get back to you.
Thanks
Posted Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:01 pm GMT by lwestatbus
I have limped pretty regularly with AA & KK under two limited and very specific situations (fixed low limit):
1. The table is so tight that any raise is almost guaranteed to net you only the blinds. Barring a miracle flop for someone else you are still pretty confident you can bet/raise the flop to end the hand.
2. There is one or more wackos behind you that can be counted on to raise with a wide range of marginal to downright stupid cards and you can then reraise on top of them. This is a great play if you are generally tight at the table (as I am) as it sends a very strong message to the other players. On the other hand it does put a lot of money in the pot and can make calling the flop reasonable for the others. In the unusual situation when there are usually several callers despite wacko's likely raise I will then raise first to try to whittle down the competition. If wacko reraises I'll cap it again.
I've also twice seen a situation where someone (two different people) I regard as very strong players will limp and then cap the betting with marginal cards after being raised and reraised with multiple callers in the hand. I was puzzled by this at first but I believe that there is a point when getting more money in the pot just flat makes sense because of the number of contributors and the possibility that you can catch a big flop. I've done something similar with a medium pocket pair once but it didn't work out.
Posted Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:56 pm GMT by Orcy
Jimmer im not sure what you dont understand, I only skimmed through the thread but you seem to mix up a couple of things.
Limping with a very strong hand in early position can be quite good in an agressive game. for example ppl in late position will often raise limper with a hand or not. Now of course unless there is only the raiser in the pot you HAVE to reraise to eliminate some limper and put more money in the pot while you have the best hand. That said dont overdo it id say 70% raise and 30% call can be acceptable but personnaly I probably do 90/10.
About the Squeeze play. 1st you attempt that play when you have some kind of read on the players because if you do it against calling station its not good at all(if your in a caling station game just raise ur good hand alot).
Anyway here is how it work, someone early or middle position make a normal raise and 1 or more person call(if someone have reraised u dont do it). Except for the initial raiser(you cant be sure about him) you suspect nobody have a super good hand cause they would have reraised so try and represent one by raising ALOT. most of the time everyone will throw their hand away. btw the squeeze is done with either the real hand ur representing (AA,KK) or complete garbage. If you have 7-8 of clubs for example you better off calling and seeing a cheap flop in good position.
Hope it helped clarify things a bit.
Posted Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:13 pm GMT by ninetensuited
let me defend myself a little bit here, when i said EP, im generallly talking about UTG only. But like everything, its situational
Posted Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:25 am GMT by jimmer
| Orcy wrote: | | Jimmer im not sure what you dont understand |
I may have not completely informed you guys of the situation and for that I appologise. All my three examples all happened on $0.25-$0.50 NL cash tables. Now this is a guess, but i would say 75% of the time, 4-6 players see the flop from limping-in preflop. The tables are always fairly loose.
My question was based on this fact. (from which I found it hard to except some of your answers).
Obviously, my question wasn't specific enough, I realise that now.
| Orcy wrote: | | Hope it helped clarify things a bit. |
And Orcy, yes it does, thanks for questioning my post.
Posted Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:50 am GMT by BeerWench13
I think the UTG limp with a very strong hand (AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ) is a wise move at an aggressive table. The odds strongly support that someone in later position will raise the pot. This means that you've masked the strength of your hand and can get more money into the pot by playing it passively from EP.
For instance (I'm a tight player and everyone I play with regularly knows this), there are two scenarios here.
Scenario 1: I raise UTG preflop. 95% of the time, everyone will fold because they know I'm a tight player and must have a monster hand. I get the blinds.
Scenario 2: I limp, player OTC or OTB will raise an unraised pot. I reraise from EP. Now, there's more money in the pot for me to take down if I don't get any callers. I have successfully masked the strength of my hand and may get a call from an opponent with a weak hand because they misread my hand.
This happened in last week's local live game($1/2 NL). I had AKs UTG. I limp. Player OTC raised to $10, Button called and BB called. I pushed for $93 more. I got called my original raiser with ATo. He said "I just didn't put you on a big hand. Maybe a small PP." I doubled up and had that guy afraid to raise whenever I limped preflop from EP. The next big hand I got UTG (QQ), I raised it up and that guy looked so confused, that he paid me off yet again figuring that I was just trying to buy the blinds for the next round.
Posted Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:36 pm GMT by fiezk
It's not a horrible move originally, but as Diamond wrote it's a dead give-away of your hand. Agains aggressive inexperienced players I might make this play.
Posted Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:18 pm GMT by snoogins47
Alot of this has to do with stack sizes too. And blah blah the usual it depends nonsense. I've arbitrarily decided to throw a few random tidbits into the mix on this topic, naturally with little rhyme and no reason.
1. I don't like LRRing nearly as much against nitty types, though it probably gets better as they get more perceptive and you get crazier (i.e. they know you could LRR with something other than a big pair) They generally just like to sell the nuts to you anyway, and LRRing is usually a big big red flag. This is nowhere near cut in stone, but most of the time you play a big pot preflop with AA against rocks, they've got big hands too. Raising lets them hang themselves more with the big (BUT NOT BIG ENOUGH HA HA) hands.
2. It feels to me as if limping with big pairs is generally best in the middle-stack zone. Dead money/picking up blinds/blahblah is too important when you're significantly short, and when you're really deep, who cares. It's real sweet in that awkward gray stack area where there's a reasonable amount of money behind but nobody can ever reasonably fold top pair or an overpair. Deep stacked, well, let's worry about how to play after the flop please.
3. Stay away from limping big pairs in EP if you're not so goot after the flop, unless everybody else sucks worse. This is irrelevant because we're all poker players, and therefore all post-flop experts by our own estimates. It's still good to know though.
4. Limp-re-raising is fun. Don't waste AA by doing it against rocks that have already figured out to be scared shitless by it. Don't waste AA by NEVER doing it against people who are reasonably, but not totally, stupid. You should probably try it with rags at least once, but if you get called and lose: I didn't tell you to do it.
5. Just fold every time I limp re-raise. Seriously.
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