Posted Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:05 pm GMT by kingetje
Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
Contempt 10475059-80306 Holdem No Limit $0.25/$0.50
Oct 11 16:58:42 : Hand Start.
Oct 11 16:58:42 : Seat 1 : bmcnally has $18.09
Oct 11 16:58:42 : Seat 2 : kingetje has $65.86
Oct 11 16:58:42 : Seat 3 : happy campe has $131.51
Oct 11 16:58:42 : Seat 4 : hbrider has $0
Oct 11 16:58:42 : Seat 5 : -STOCKCITY- has $73.59
Oct 11 16:58:42 : Seat 6 : Fossen has $86.25
Oct 11 16:58:42 : Fossen is the dealer.
Oct 11 16:58:42 : bmcnally posted small blind.
Oct 11 16:58:43 : kingetje posted big blind.
Oct 11 16:58:43 : Game 80306 started with 5 players.
Oct 11 16:58:43 : Dealing Hole Cards.
Oct 11 16:58:43 : Seat 2 : kingetje has 5h 9h
Oct 11 16:58:48 : happy campe called $0.50
Oct 11 16:58:58 : -STOCKCITY- folded.
Oct 11 16:58:59 : Fossen folded.
Oct 11 16:58:59 : bmcnally called $0.25
Oct 11 16:59:00 : happy campe : but not him
Oct 11 16:59:14 : It's your turn.
Oct 11 16:59:14 : kingetje has 10 seconds to respond.
Oct 11 16:59:16 : kingetje checked.
Oct 11 16:59:16 : Dealing flop.
Oct 11 16:59:16 : Board cards   
Oct 11 16:59:20 : bmcnally bet $1
Oct 11 16:59:24 : kingetje called $1
Oct 11 16:59:29 : happy campe called $1
Oct 11 16:59:29 : Dealing turn.
Oct 11 16:59:29 : Board cards 
Oct 11 16:59:31 : bmcnally checked.
Oct 11 16:59:35 : kingetje bet $3.50
Oct 11 16:59:41 : happy campe called $3.50 and raised $126.51 and is All-in
Oct 11 16:59:43 : bmcnally folded.
Oct 11 16:59:44 : kingetje ??
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Posted Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:13 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Whats your read on this player first? Have you noticed them playing alot of suited cards? No raise pre-flop so I might rule out AK  . Still leaves J and 10 out there that could beat you. Not sure I could lay this down in your position unless I had some type of read that told me this player more then likely has me beat.
I am interested in finding out how this hand does come out so post some results when you get some more feedback please.
Posted Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:10 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I don't see why you'd call with only ~$5 invested. Sure, he might be bluffing, but the cost is simply too high to find out.
Fold.
Posted Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:55 pm GMT by Phil14312
If he didn't have the nut flush, why wouldn't he raise the flop.
If he does have the nut flush, why would he raise so much?
Unless you think he is thinking on the level above this, I call. It sounds like 2-pair/set, or the Ace of hearts.
Posted Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:35 pm GMT by jeffonline
I love these situations this is why we play the game.
UrAteUp: What’s your read on this player
XDiamond_Cuterx: Fold
Phil14312: Call
All the right advice, it looks like a coin flip situation without a read and then you could still be wrong. The way I approach these situation is. Am I willing to gamble all my money right now? Can I wait for a better position? I think he has the Ah with either of these cards 8 4 Q 3 or 2 but not of hearts. He has a pair or a strait draw with the nuts if he hits a heart. If this guy was an aggressive player who had been hitting on me all night I would call. Looking at it from the villains point of view he up against the two blinds who have not shown any strength until the turn 3s, his read on you is important how have you been playing, he could see your raise as an attempt to steel. My 15 seconds is up I fold.
Posted Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:01 pm GMT by mackkie
I would not be suprised for a second if this guy pushed with an A or K -- hoping to his his other heart on the river...depends on your read, but you sure run into people who are willing to gamble their stack on a crazy draw like that.
Did you call?
Posted Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:21 am GMT by Jefecaminador
pot is ~ 70 and its 60 to call. You'd have to be pretty sure he didnt have the flush already, and I'm thinking at worst he has some outs on you. IF you're not at least 65% sure he doesnt have a higher flush, I fold.
That being said, I could easily see him having you crushed, and seeing if you're a donk that'll pay him off. I fold.
Posted Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:25 am GMT by kingetje
some interesting replies, i enjoyed reading them
| Quote: | | Whats your read on this player first? |
about reads, i had no reads about this player at all really, i had been sitting at this table for like 20 minutes and i think he joined the party a little later on so i had nothing really to base my decision on in regard to previous plays made by him
| Quote: | | Sure, he might be bluffing, but the cost is simply too high to find out. |
a very reasonable standpoint, however when i think back on my time at doyles room, i would have left a LOT of money on the table if i never gambled to find out somethings that felt a bit fishy,.... a LOT of money, (mike sexton) I can tell ya! (/mike sexton)
| Quote: | If he didn't have the nut flush, why wouldn't he raise the flop.
If he does have the nut flush, why would he raise so much? |
these questions definitely went through my head. if he has the nuts or something close to it, why would he chase EVERYONE that he can beat that would otherwise donate some more money to the pot out? it would just be a pretty abonimable play
| Quote: | | Looking at it from the villains point of view he up against the two blinds who have not shown any strength until the turn 3s, his read on you is important how have you been playing, he could see your raise as an attempt to steel. |
this is also very true, to him it looked like noone had much of anything, again why push everyone out with a hand that could collect money from alot of inferior hands that would continue had they not faced such a huge bet
| Quote: | | I would not be suprised for a second if this guy pushed with an A or K Heart -- hoping to his his other heart on the river... |
i wouldnt be either
the other day on doyles room, i had A-T of spades, i raised it a little pre-flop from middle postiion, got one early position caller.. i flopped the nut flush, he checked, i bet the flop, he called. the turn was an offsuit blank, he pushes all-in for all his money. i insta-call and he showed 7-3 of HEARTS for a gutshot straight draw with no flush outs. you might understand this hand was still lingering in the back of my mind, so i called for all the times someone pushed in on me with an absolute joke of a hand, coupled with the "why bet so much with such a strong hand that could win money if not bet so strong?".. so yes, i gambled and called:
Oct 11 16:59:44 : kingetje called $60.86 and is All-in
Oct 11 16:59:44 : Showdown!
Oct 11 16:59:44 : Seat 2 : kingetje has 5h 9h
Oct 11 16:59:46 : Seat 2 : kingetje has 5h 9h
Oct 11 16:59:46 : Seat 3 : happy campe has 2h Ah
Oct 11 16:59:51 : Board cards 
Oct 11 16:59:51 : Seat 3 : happy campe has 2h Ah
Oct 11 16:59:51 : happy campe has Flush AQ842
Oct 11 16:59:51 : Seat 2 : kingetje has 5h 9h
Oct 11 16:59:51 : kingetje has Flush Q9854
Oct 11 16:59:51 : happy campe wins $130.22 with Flush AQ842
Oct 11 17:00:01 : happy campe : sory
Oct 11 17:00:01 : Hand is over.
  
Posted Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:42 pm GMT by jeffonline
Glad I folded, you had a hand, I can only presume he put you on trips and did not want the board to pair, he may have suffered a bad beat recently when that happened and was happy to win the current pot, otherwise you would think he would take it to the river and see how much you were willing to bet on the last card. If you folded as you could easily have done he would have missed out on that last bet. Tough game this NLTH.
Posted Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:41 am GMT by shorn7
Well, I have seen the results now so this is a bit unfair. That being said, I would have folded my hand with no reads on this player. I am much more apt to give people the benefit of the doubt the first time before I see them table a few hands and get more information. YOu also have to remember that a lot of players are now pushing with unbeatable hands just because it looks like a bluff too.
Sklansky's new book goes through a lot of scenarios discussing the probability of different bet sizes being called and it is surprising how often a push is the correct play even if it is rarely called. In this case, I think the guy was more worried that he would lose his market if another heart came on the river. While based on your stack size and the pot size, I don't like his play (I would have raised to maybe $20 or so and put you all in on the river), there are decent arguments for the play.
All in all a very interesting hand. Thanks for posting it.
Posted Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:58 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
| shorn7 wrote: | . YOu also have to remember that a lot of players are now pushing with unbeatable hands just because it looks like a bluff too.
|
Exactly... sometimes its easier to get all the mony in the pot if you only show strength in one bizzare move then it is to do a big raise then follow up with an all in. Hes prolly thinking with such a small pot relative to stack size, it will be difficult for him to get all your chips with 2 big strong bets. So he goes for the gamble and hopes you'll call down his "bluff". I do this sometimes too when the pot is really small and i have the nuts.
Posted Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:18 am GMT by AHBrownell
I think a bet on the flop might have done wonders for you here.
I never slowplay these types of flushes because its too easy for your opponents to draw out on you. I want to know on the flop what I'm up against. I think your situation was far harder because it sure is impossible to know where hes at. He might have top pair or something insane like that!
I bet the flop, if I'm raised I proceed with caution for the rest of the hand. If I get raised a lot, I probably just fold on the flop. I hate these middle flushes because people just love Ax suited. I mean look at your opponent's hand - a2. What an awful hand ! But because it was suited he played it. I tend to think that you are going to lose a lot of money in this hand no matter what - but I think you can minimize your losses by getting more information earlier...
Posted Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:18 am GMT by supafrey
That is a ludicrously easy fold
Posted Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:10 pm GMT by Phil14312
| supa wrote: | | That is a ludicrously easy fold |
Please explain, maybe I'm missing something.
Posted Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:51 pm GMT by supafrey
There are much, much better opportunities for us to make stacks that don't involve weakish flopped flushes against all ins. I don't understand why we'd ever risk that much for such a sketchy situation - just fold and wait two seconds for the next hand.
I really don't see much difference between this and like...
AT with a flop of T83, and the turn brings a 2, and someone does the same action.
I think people that lean towards the call are getting far too focused on the literal strength of our hand as opposed to the relative strength. Between flushes and the suckout value of a set here, I don't see why we're in a rush.
Posted Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:53 pm GMT by 1988 TR
Grow a pair Supa. The best answer isn't always to sit around and wait for the nuts.
Posted Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:14 pm GMT by Phil14312
Suckout value of a set? C'mon now you can do better than that Supa.
This is like the other thread where DaveB had 56. Lets say you take his situation and you are only losing to a very few hands, 78, 99, 55, or 66. If they outflop you so be it.
Ok maybe that doesn't make sense. Bottom line:
I'm really not thinking villain flips up a better flush here most of the time.
Posted Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:28 pm GMT by supafrey
The idea of me "needing to grow a pair" because i don't call a hand that's barely over even money with a weak flush and little incentive is almost laughable. If anything, I tend to overcall. Alot. Not this time. Grow up, chief.
(not to mention the fact we started the hand with only 66 bucks, which is probably the biggest issue - if we had a real starting stack like we're supposed to we wouldn't be put in these kind of situations...)
Posted Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:06 am GMT by 1988 TR
| supa wrote: | The idea of me "needing to grow a pair" because i don't call a hand that's barely over even money with a weak flush and little incentive is almost laughable. If anything, I tend to overcall. Alot. Not this time. Grow up, chief.
(not to mention the fact we started the hand with only 66 bucks, which is probably the biggest issue - if we had a real starting stack like we're supposed to we wouldn't be put in these kind of situations...) |
Only 66 bucks? What is the buy in at 25/50 cents? Isn't it $50?
Posted Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:23 pm GMT by kingetje
| Quote: | | What is the buy in at 25/50 cents? Isn't it $50? |
the max. buy-in there is $100.
Posted Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:34 am GMT by supafrey
i didn't mean to be rude king. I'm just saying - if you think you're good, there's no reason not to have the absolute max in maneuverability (full stack).
Posted Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:26 am GMT by shorn7
I am with supa. While there might be some very tough tables that you should buy-in short, if you feel that you are better than the field, then buying in for the max. is the best way to go. Your strategic options are very limited with a short stack (say 40 BB or less) since a lot of hands that you would normally play for a raise aren't profitable anymore (like small pairs and suited connectors).
I would reccomend you have at least 100 BB's on the table in most games or more if a partiuclarly bad player has a lot of chips. WIth the deep stack, not only do your playing options open up, but your profit potential is a lot higher as well.
Posted Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:53 am GMT by 1988 TR
I would agree. You will never find me short stacked at a NL table.
Posted Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:25 pm GMT by kingetje
well, i agree as well. and i do feel im "good" enough to play at this level and its more profitable right now for me then .10/.20...
BUT, if i'd sit down with the $100, id have about 10% of my entire bankroll on the table. and i doubt thats wise.. so its a bit of a dilemma
Posted Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:19 pm GMT by 1988 TR
If you don't feel comfortable with $100 at that table, I don't think you should be playing at those limits. You will play much better at limits you are comfortable with.
Posted Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:29 pm GMT by kingetje
oh i dont mind sitting at a table with 100. but isnt the general concensus that you have 20 buy-ins in your BR?
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