Who played worse, me or him? |
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Posted Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:44 am GMT by odlozilik
Table: JONQUIL AVE (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - JOHN05 ($6.60 in chips)
Seat 4 - SFLALOCAL ($5.30 in chips)
Seat 5 - ANAKONDIS ($10.40 in chips)
Seat 9 - XANDON ($6.06 in chips)
Seat 1 - ODLOZILIK ($1.97 in chips)
SFLALOCAL - Posts small blind $0.05
ANAKONDIS - Posts big blind $0.10
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to ODLOZILIK  
XANDON - Calls $0.10
ODLOZILIK - Raises $0.50 to $0.50
JOHN05 - Calls $0.50
SFLALOCAL - Folds
ANAKONDIS - Folds
XANDON - Calls $0.40
*** FLOP ***   
XANDON - Checks
ODLOZILIK - Bets $0.50
JOHN05 - Calls $0.50
XANDON - Calls $0.50
*** TURN *** 
XANDON - Checks
ODLOZILIK - All-In $0.97
JOHN05 - Calls $0.97
XANDON - Calls $0.97
*** RIVER *** 
XANDON - All-In $4.09
JOHN05 - Folds
XANDON - returned ($4.09) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
XANDON - Shows   (Three of a kind, nines)
ODLOZILIK - Mucks
XANDON Collects $5.76 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($6.06) | Rake ($0.30)
Board
Seat 1: ODLOZILIK HI: Mucked
Seat 3: JOHN05 (dealer) Folded on the RIVER
Seat 4: SFLALOCAL (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: ANAKONDIS (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 9: XANDON won Total ($5.76) All-In HI:($5.76) with Three of a kind, nines -
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Posted Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:52 pm GMT by Gunslinger
His call of your pre-flop raise was pretty bad, but after the flop, you bet too weak, and you gave him correct odds to stick around (he had 9 outs to improve). You had few options, though, since your stack after the flop is already less than the pot, so you needed to just push on the flop since it's so draw heavy. If you're already behind on the flop when you push, you have outs to improve or chop. Although, since your stack is so short even this guy might not have folded if you pushed since he knew that was the most he could lose. Many reasons to not play so short stacked (especially less than 20BBs!).
Posted Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:29 pm GMT by odlozilik
Thanks for your oppinion, Gunslinger. Just to explain a little bit. I really wanted the caller(s), best the both of them, I was affraid that they may fold, as often happens in such a situations, at least on the tables, where I play. I considered the flop great for me, having an overpair and open-ended str8, so I decided to risk a little bit. If I went all in on the flop, I would either be beaten anyway, if he would call, or, if they folded, would make profit not satisfying me, considering the great flop I got. Well, easy to judge after the lost battle...
I actually prefare to play with smaller amounts on the table, it suites better to my playstyle. I don't often use "scary" bets, but often decide to call such a ones, if I smell the bluff. So, in that case, it's much easier to call 3$ than 10 or 20.
Posted Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:13 am GMT by TheSalche
push the flop, hope for the best
Posted Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:21 pm GMT by Gunslinger
| odlozilik wrote: | | If I went all in on the flop, I would be beaten if he would call |
This is not correct, given your stack size. People will call a less than pot size bet, guaranteed to see two more cards, with a LOT of hands worse than yours. And betting lower amounts, giving people the odds to draw to a better hand than yours will cost you a lot of money in the long run. You say you would not be satisfied if everyone folded on the flop, but with your small bet you are losing money in one of two ways. Either you win a lot less money when you win the hand, or you lose the hand because you allowed them to draw out on you. You WANT your opponents to make a mistake, and your play didn't give them a chance. If you make this small bet every time, you will lose more in the long run when opponents correctly draw out on you than you win from the small pots you rake with your small bets. Does that make sense? If you play with even a slightly larger stack, and bet the pot on that flop, you PROFIT from the donkeys who will still call, making a mistake, even though you are not giving them correct odds. And they especially will call at these stakes.
I know you think you are playing smart, low-risk poker with your short stack. You don't have to have a huge stack. But in the long run, you are losing money.
Posted Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:53 pm GMT by odlozilik
| Quote: | | If you make this small bet every time, you will lose more in the long run when opponents correctly draw out on you than you win from the small pots you rake with your small bets. |
This is an interesting discussion, I must say. First to say, you may be surprised, but I am winning in the long run, with my way of play (well, if few months, which I play cash games, can be considered as a long run). I made about 370$ in about 2 months, mostly played 0.1$ ring tables, with a little help of tourneys.
Well, I am thinking, how much more could I earn, if I improve that my "wrong habbit" of small beting. Or maybe it's not the point at all, it's hard to say. Players are usually quite confused with my playing, at least untill they come to know me well.
Today one player told me that he can't figure me out. Few minutes later we played this crazy hand:
Stage #468073385: Holdem No Limit $0.10 - 2006-10-13 18:16:53 (ET)
Table: ITALY DR. (Real Money) Seat #9 is the dealer
Seat 9 - DELAWAREDERR ($12.15 in chips)
Seat 1 - GAULT000 ($8.50 in chips)
Seat 2 - MRBILL222 ($2.45 in chips)
Seat 3 - ODLOZILIK ($8.15 in chips)
Seat 6 - DREAD_LION ($9.20 in chips)
Seat 7 - LUCKY_DUCK1 ($4.90 in chips)
GAULT000 - Posts small blind $0.05
MRBILL222 - Posts big blind $0.10
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to ODLOZILIK  
ODLOZILIK - Raises $0.40 to $0.40
DREAD_LION - Folds
LUCKY_DUCK1 - Folds
DELAWAREDERR - Folds
GAULT000 - Calls $0.35
MRBILL222 - Calls $0.30
*** FLOP ***   
GAULT000 - Checks
MRBILL222 - Checks
ODLOZILIK - Bets $0.20
GAULT000 - Raises $1.30 to $1.30
MRBILL222 - Folds
ODLOZILIK - Raises $2.40 to $2.60
GAULT000 - Calls $1.30
*** TURN ***
GAULT000 - Checks
ODLOZILIK - Bets $0.60
GAULT000 - Raises $2.70 to $2.70
ODLOZILIK - Calls $2.10
*** RIVER *** 
GAULT000 - All-In $2.80
ODLOZILIK - All-In $2.45
GAULT000 - returned ($0.35) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GAULT000 - Shows  (One pair, eights)
ODLOZILIK - Shows (Two Pair, aces and kings)
ODLOZILIK Collects $15.90 from main pot
Well, I am thinking, did just he played completely horribly, or am I somehow involved in that? Such a hands happen quite often to me. Of course, not always with the happy end, but I think big porcion of my balance was made in such or similar way.
After writing the all above, I tried to play some hands according your advice. Yeah, in some hands I could really make the better profit, because players kept calling my almost pot sized bets, while in another hands everybody folded. It varied from hand to hand, but basically, there is really something on that. Thanks for the advice!
Sorry, if all that seems stupid to you, I play poker still less than 1 year and almost nobody plays poker in the country I live in, so I can't talk about it with anybody except at the tables or here on the forum.
Posted Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:56 am GMT by Gunslinger
I didn't mean you were a losing player overall, just in that specific circumstance: you have a strong hand on the flop, probably the best hand, but very vulnerable to draws. That is the time where weak bets hurt you in the long run.
One of the keys is, when you find someone who is calling pot sized bets on the flop, MAKE A NOTE! Even when you are not in the hand, watch what other players are showing down, and see what they had on the flop. If someone is calling huge bets with either draws, or something like middle pair bad kicker, then value bet huge when you are in a pot with them. And try not to bluff them, as they will call with any piece of the board.
Good luck!
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