Posted Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:56 pm GMT by Alaskadude
Man, I just cannot believe the amount of panic out there just because of this one idiotic bill that isn't even enforceable yet! C'mon people (and poker sites) get a grip.
I think everyone can agree that this bill was totally stupid and believe me people, this thing isn't enforceable over the long term. There are already ways to get around this and, if everyone will just be patient, it will go away. I am starting to see resistance to this appear and criticism of it's enforceability is popping up. For example:
http://www.pokernews.com/news/2006/10/uigea-conservative-backlash-begins.htm
Ok, I've got to hit the road but I'll check back here to see who I've p.o'd this time.
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:00 pm GMT by lwestatbus
There has been a lot of informed concensus that Dude is correct but if the poker sites respond then we are faced with their decisions. I think that the arrests of four international gaming company executives has gotten a lot of attention in the industry. Not only are executives open to arrest if they travel to the US but they may be subject to extradition.
Bottom line is that if we try to join/play a site that rejects us we have no option except to set up the poker table in the basement on Saturday night. This is a particular problem for those of us in Florida as the water table precludes basements in most areas.
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:39 pm GMT by Alaskadude
And now, even more criticism from a very influential conservative.
http://www.pokernews.com/news/2006/10/online-gambling-backlash-george-will.htm
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:26 am GMT by QuietOne
No, I will not chill. Yes it is a stupid law and yes in is totally not enforceable but . . .
Site are cutting off American players right and left.
And do you know how much this is going to cost us, the American tax payers when they try to enforce this?
And do you think this is the end? This might be and probably will be, the beginnging. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (A real piece of S**t) whos' bill this was is a total Family Values nut. He will be running for president in the next election.
This is NOT A CASE about on-line poker. It is a case about basic Amercian freedom. I know at least a dozen on-line poker players who never vote. They tell me how politics don't interest them. IT BETTER! This is what happens. And believe me, there are many right wing nuts who plan to do a lot more.
Do not chill. Make your voice be heard!
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:53 am GMT by ORGrinder
| QuietOne wrote: | | Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (A real piece of S**t) whos' bill this was is a total Family Values nut. He will be running for president in the next election. |
that would be foolish. he'll lose. and not in any way because of the gaming legislation.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:34 am GMT by QuietOne
I pray you are right.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:37 am GMT by UrAteUp
Frisk, Bush...screw them all. The bunch of lame ass non poker playing cheap sell outs.
If Frisk ran for president do not worry. A snow-ball has a better chance in hell then Frisk has at becoming president.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:18 pm GMT by Alaskadude
| QuietOne wrote: |
...And do you think this is the end? This might be and probably will be, the beginnging. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist...will be running for president in the next election.
This is NOT A CASE about on-line poker. It is a case about basic Amercian freedom. I know at least a dozen on-line poker players who never vote...this is what happes. And believe me, there are many right wing nuts who plan to do a lot more.
Do not chill. Make your voice be heard! |
Well, first of all, my original post was not intended to discuss all the solutions for getting this act repealed, I'm just trying to solve one problem at a time.
As a first step I think we need to calm the panicked hordes that are abandoning online poker and get them to stand firm. Every time a player bails out, the far right smiles in victory. It was also my (possibly overly subtle) way of showing my disdain for the poker sites that have caved in to pressure from these right wing idiots. I'm sure Frist and the rest of his &@*!^# cronies gain no end of satisfaction every time they hear of a poker site closing out their US players.
However, now that you've brought it up, you are 100% correct that each one of us needs to show our disgust for what is happening and voting is the best way we can fight this. Voter apathy is one of the biggest problems we have faced in this country and, as a result, the inmates are now running the asylum.
It's my opinion that these smug, we know what's best for you, religious nuts in congress are going to get a rude awakening next month. I'm a republican but I am disgusted with the direction the religious right has taken my party and the country. Don't get me wrong here either. I'm not crazy about the democrats and their penchant for taxing us to death but I'll deal with that later. Right now, we ALL need to vote next month and again in two years when we elect a new president.
I have read several articles where the amount of online poker players in the US is estimated to be between 10 million and 35 million. If you take a conservative estimate of the total amount of online players and factor out the underage individuals, that is still a HUGE voting block. Look at just how close the last two presidential elections were. The poker vote can now be a very important factor. Let's hope there are some politicians out there who are smart enough to realize it.
So people, I'll repeat myself here and say chill out! Then, as QuietOne says, VOTE!
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:30 pm GMT by ORGrinder
won't help though... not poker specifically anyway.
what would you have us do, vote based on where a candidate stands on online poker?
there are bigger issues this election cycle than online poker. unfortunately, we may not have much choice but to vote for someone who is against poker if they represent the rest of our values appropriately.
not tryin to be a killjoy... just sayin.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:47 pm GMT by QuietOne
Alaskadude,
I think we are on the same page. When I hear the words "Chill Out", to me it sounds like there is nothing to worry about. My mistake.
I am concerned about the on-line poker site bailing on us but I'm hoping it is not as bad as it seems. Many of them are saying they want to look at the whole situation and see where they stand and are just cutting off American customers until then. Since this bill does not change the legality of on-line poker, I'm hopeful that many of them will find a work around to get accounts funded.
As for ORGrinder assumtion that this is not important enough to be a concern during election, he is 100% wrong. First, there are million's of poker players in the US and each one has a voice.
If ORGrinder is right, this bill would have never been put through. Frist thought is was important enough to his backer to scam this into law.
But beyond that, again I repeat, this goes way beyond poker. This is not a case about On-Line Poker! The goverment has come into our home and told us what we can and can't do with our own money in our homes. That's a matter of FREEDOM! If you can't see that, than we lost. It might seem like a little matter in the grand scope of the universe but this might be only the tip of the iceberg!
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:57 pm GMT by ORGrinder
you didn't read what i said did you. that or you completely misunderstand me as you did alaskadude.
i didn't say the situation wasn't important. i said if you vote based on poker, you're not a very bright american. it can be a factor, but there's WAY WAY larger fish to fry than online poker. if a candidate blows except for that he/she supports online gaming, and you vote for that candidate, you're an idiot.
as to your second comment... i'm not even sure what you're saying "if i'm right about". i didn't make any assertions in that regard. it was frists pet project... he snuk it onto a port security bill, and everyone in congress (save 2) voted to pass it. i'm not sure what you're suggesting i implied... but i'm certain you're confused.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:29 pm GMT by Alaskadude
| ORGrinder wrote: | won't help though... not poker specifically anyway.
what would you have us do, vote based on where a candidate stands on online poker?
there are bigger issues this election cycle than online poker. unfortunately, we may not have much choice but to vote for someone who is against poker if they represent the rest of our values appropriately.
not tryin to be a killjoy... just sayin. |
It looks like there were a few other posts before I finished typing this so I'm sorry if it appears to be out of sequence.
Ok, I'll contribute to the continued creep factor of my own thread here. :D
Lol, no, if it was a requirement for a politician to agree with us on everything before they receive our vote, they'd all get one vote, their own. However you have to look for indicators to determine if a particular politician is someone you want in office.
If online poker goes away, I'll live. My issue here isn't mainly with our continued play online because, like you said, there are bigger issues here. However, this is a poker forum and I think using poker as an example is expedient.
I do think that a persons stance on the poker issue is a very important indicator as to just what kind of politician they are. They are either one of those that thinks they know what's best for the huddled masses, or they are just going along with it because they don't want to rock their party's boat. Either way, they should lose their seat. If the poker issue is their only aberration, stick with them and try to change their mind.
A few years ago, a political hopeful came to my house stumping for votes in his first election for state seat. He was a Republican so he already had my vote nearly sewn up. An important issue up here is the debate over instituting either a state income tax or a sales tax. I asked him where he stood and he said he was leaning (political speak) towards the income tax. When I told him I felt the sales tax was more fair to ALL Alaskans he said he agreed but if he came out and said that, he wouldn't get elected. He lost my vote instantly. I told him so and we talked for a while longer but neither of us were able to convince the other to change.
The man wasn't interested in what was right or wrong with issues, he just wanted to get elected and he was just going with whichever way the wind was blowing at the time.
My somewhat flawed analogy of the political process is that it is similar to a pendulum and is always swinging left and right. At this time I think it has swung too far to the right and we need to get it headed in the opposite direction. Too far in either direction is to be avoided as extremism in any way, shape or form, (including religion) is a very unhealthful situation to be in if you want to be a free society. Stopping the pendulum in the middle isn't a solution either as that would be anarchy.
If a persons favorite politician is pushing or just riding the pendulum on it's swing in either direction and is doing nothing to stop it, that person needs to be replaced in their next election. And I'm not referring to just their stance on poker here. The anti-poker sentiment in congress is just a symptom of "rightness" that seems to be running rampant at this time. How else can we send a signal to the politicians if not through the ballot box?
I'm fairly certain that the Democrats will gain a majority in the house next month and it will be largely based on the corruption/immorality factor and the pendulum will either slow it's rightward movement or maybe even start in the other direction.
Just in time for, ugh, Hillary to run.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:48 pm GMT by ORGrinder
| Alaskadude wrote: | | Just in time for, ugh, Hillary to run. |
omg don't even think like that. LOL
otherwise... good points.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:02 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Alaskadude wrote: | | Stopping the pendulum in the middle isn't a solution either as that would be anarchy. |
You'll have to explain that one. How does Centrism = Anarchy?
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:45 pm GMT by QuietOne
I understand what you are saying and I do agree that they do have a lot bigger fish to fry than on-line poker. My point was this is not about on-line poker. You see, I will base my vote on this issue because it is not about poker but personal freedom and if the goverment has a right to take away my rights. Yes, it's trival thing, poker. But my fear is once they get away with this, what next? Don't I have the right to spend my own my, my own way, in my own home without the goverment telling me I can't? What's next?
The fact that they passed the bill in the first place shows that this little fish is important to someone. That's because this is not a little fish. It's so much more.
But all this is crap. We can argue or disagree or whatever (and I think we are all really agreeing, we are just using different words). The fact is, all we can do is vote for those who have similar view, and hope for the best.
We are all just fellow poker playered who want to play on-line poker and, apparently, our current goverment could give a s**t about us.
If anyone is interested, the Circuit on Card Player's website had a wonderful piece on this on there 10-19 podcast. This can be downloaded from both itunes and thier website.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:49 pm GMT by ORGrinder
i agree... i think ppa.org is one of the best things for US poker players right now.
i spotted them a free banner on my site (least i could do). maybe the fine gents here would be interested in doing the same? the more members they get, the better off we'll all be!
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:02 pm GMT by vyni
We have the ppa banners lined up ready to roll out to our US traffic shortly: it's already been discussed. THP itself will have minor changes for US vs the non-US traffic, but I'm not sure yet when they will be rolled out. Still running as has been in the aftermath of it all right now.
I do have to ask if it's too little too late for the ppa... I listened to the espn podcast awhile ago, and it doesnt sound like they're doing too much. 'Educate' the politicians to the game and the stats, etc... I think we need more than that right now. I know Adam met the president of the ppa briefly when he was in Vegas for the WSOP, but it's my understanding that we were having an issue getting he ppa to cooperate with us which I find rather shocking.
Now let me be clear that I'm not knocking the ppa efforts at all... I too am a contributing member of the ppa. I'm just wishing we could hear some solid plan of attack on this from anyone. Online petitions... way too little way too late. Now that this thing has been signed, to free the poker rooms to operate online in the US without question, we need it defined in legislation or at least in a federal case history. We almost need to see an operator tried in the US and win. Defense fund should do well whenever that happens lol.
I'm not a politician, and I'm not a lawyer.... but I think an effort to push text through congress to give poker its carveout has little chance of getting floor time or the votes: it was hard to get this legislation through so they 'cheated' it in... but I think it'll be far harder to undo the damage. My guess is our best hope would be for eupoean nations to join antiqua in the WTO complaints. This likely wont happen either though, although its been suggested several times. Reason being is that the eurpoean poker monsters that dropped the US market are not only doing it for their protection (and to protect their stock holders) but to show their willingness to comply which leaves them in great position to open back up to the US when the market opens back up. Joining into the fight themselves may be counterproductive. I should hope that the ppa, or any organization working in our favor, would be getting massive contributions from the poker rooms. I don't know if that happeneing or not, and dont know that it would be disclosed even if it were.
I know that we need someone to push on the banking industry and the government when they draw up these policies regarding transactions: they'll be implementing a special transaction code for those with online casinos: we really need an action there right now in my opinion: seperate codes for the types of casinos: those who offer games of chance verses those who only provide poker. If poker rooms are lumped into the same codes as casino games..... it will be even harder to get this opened back up. In fact, I want to contact the ppa and representitves about this and see if I can't get some reply. Will wait till after elections to see who I have to talk to (since nothings getting done now anyways).
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:03 pm GMT by Alaskadude
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | Alaskadude wrote: | | Stopping the pendulum in the middle isn't a solution either as that would be anarchy. |
You'll have to explain that one. How does Centrism = Anarchy? |
Hmmm, hadn't thought of the pendulum not moving representing Centrism. My obviously weak analogy is that the pendulum isn't moving at all. It has nothing driving it back and forth which equals being leaderless or without authoritative figures leading the group. Therefore Anarchy.
Thanks for making me clear it up though.
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