Prime example why you dont over extend you BR |
|
Posted Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:13 pm GMT by mortaleclipse
Been alot of talk lately and I suppose always, what limit should I play with my BR and should I try to push to higher limits to try to make some serious money. Let me tell you why this isnt a good idea from a experience I just had. As most of you know I just had a great 5th place finish in a tourny with a cash out of 3.7k. So I took out 2k and left 1.7k in there to play with.
Im was playing 1/2NL with buy in of 200 dollars and doing decently well and made a couple hundred dollars in like 2 days from just playing the best poker I have ever played.
Well smart old me thought lets do it, lets sit with the big boys, so I sat down at the 10/20NL and and play with my entire 2k. Ok after about 2 hours of playing im up to 3k and fealing hot. One prime hand was when I had kings and raised to 150 I get one caller. Flop and king and turn aboat and get about a grand out of that ahnd cause other dude had aces. Now moving on to what was the worst poker moment of my life.
2.9k Hero - q  q  raises to 100 dolalrs
2.5k villian calls
Flop 8  10 q 
Hero - check
Villain bets - 100 dollars
Hero - calls
Turn 2
Hero - check
Villain - 400 dollars
Hero calls
River 3
Hero - check
Villian pushes all in for 1.9k
Now this is one hell of a descion on what to do. I have 2nd nut. Havent seen this guy in to many pots but why would he push if he had jack/9 and not even attempt to get a value bet. My thinking he had no idea how strong I was. Missed draw and really wants his money back or smaller set. So I call and Villian flips over jack 9 .
BAM just like that all my money gone and felt very ill. Every thought went threw my mind of how this could happen. So point of my story is this is why, you could be very strong and feal like nothing can stop you and in one hand all your hard earned work flushed down the tubes.
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:17 pm GMT by supafrey
when did you do this?
Posted Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:19 pm GMT by mortaleclipse
2 days ago, least I took out 2 grand 
Posted Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:40 pm GMT by supafrey
true.
now don't do that again. ^_^
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:37 am GMT by MrDarling
ouch. That sucks!!
Yep that is the reason why you don't put all your BR in one table. Even if you do play the best ever poker and don't make any mistakes there are BAD BEATS.
I think even if you had a 10K BR this hand will still make you sick, loosing 3K is never fun. But at least you'd have 7K extra to grind it back up.
Now you're going to re-deposit $100 and grind it up back from $10NL.
Good luck man, this is a lesson you're probably not going to forget.
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:12 am GMT by Poto
Tough luck, but now you know it's a bad thing to do.
Btw. I hate slowplaying on that board.
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:40 am GMT by wEbMaStEr
Wow!
I really don't see any way you could put this guy on a better hand than yours? WHY would he push all in on the river? I mean, apart from the obvious that he got you to call  Just, wow!
Yeah, all your b/r at one table. Bad mmkay.
Also, last thing... Iffff you ever do something like this again and you sit down with $2k and work it up to $3k... Go south with the profit and then come back in with original buyin, that way if things do go sour, you still have a fall back. That doesn't just go for that level, I will take any good profit off the table at earliest opportunity, no point spending an hour or so making it, just to give it back in 1 hand.
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:50 am GMT by kingetje
that is sick. but pretty stupid to sit down with all the money you have
a friend of mine who plays on pacific does the same type of things. he had $50 deposited on the site.. so he plays a $50 SnG. wins some money and plays a $150 SnG... etc etc until he racked it up to about a $1500. then he took out $1000 and played a $500 SnG. for some reason it went well for him (so far) but you can see how BR destructive this type of stuff is. he probably lost it all by now
i mean, one bad beat and all your money is gone... thats too dangerous
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:18 pm GMT by mortaleclipse
Question is would of you guys called his all in on the river? I mean yes it shows obvious he had me beat but in all honestly I think almost anyone would of called. One point my brother who was sitting besides me watching me play said there wasnt enough money to take that chance in the pot. What i think the guy was doing is he didnt want to juice the pot up to much in case another club fell and felt pot commited cause he probably put me on a flush draw.
For some reason I felt like I was in the opening scene of Rounders while the jerk off behind his computer was chewing some oreos.
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:30 pm GMT by supafrey
| Quote: | | What i think the guy was doing is he didnt want to juice the pot up to much in case another club fell and felt pot commited cause he probably put me on a flush draw. |
Please don't play any more 10/20nl until you can figure out what's wrong with this sentence.
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:54 pm GMT by ORGrinder
| supa wrote: | | Quote: | | What i think the guy was doing is he didnt want to juice the pot up to much in case another club fell and felt pot commited cause he probably put me on a flush draw. |
Please don't play any more 10/20nl until you can figure out what's wrong with this sentence. |
why not enlighten us youself?
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:53 pm GMT by mortaleclipse
Yea please cause I would like to know as well. It was the oddest play by the villian. I am trying to think of ways why it was played that way. I figured he just would of thought I would of folded and was on a draw. Obviously you must know more then me so explain please.
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:00 pm GMT by supafrey
Usually people learn alot better (and remember it) when they figure it out themselves. I've pointed at what's wrong.
I'll narrow it down a bit. If you have a flush draw, who's winning on the flop and turn? Who gets more out of every dollar in the pot? Who would want the pot to get as big as possible?
Also - play at 10/20nl is very, very complex. He didn't really do anything that weird, though - just seemed to bet when he was ahead the whole way through, and clearly saw you didn't mind putting in money.
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:21 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| mortaleclipse wrote: | | It was the oddest play by the villian. I am trying to think of ways why it was played that way. I figured he just would of thought I would of folded and was on a draw. |
Ok, so if you were in fact on a busted draw, he shouldn't bet the river at all since you really can't call any bet and there's no reason not to let you see a free showdown?
You called a 1/2 pot bet on the flop. You called a pot-sized bet on the turn. Like supa said, you clearly had no qualms about putting money in the middle.
Two things can happen on the river:
a) you have a hand that you can't call with, regardless of the size of his value bet.
b) you have a hand that you will call with, regardless of the size of his value bet.
Holding the nuts makes it a pretty easy decision from his standpoint, and it's not the least bit odd.
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:25 pm GMT by supafrey
ding ding ding
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:12 pm GMT by ORGrinder
| supa wrote: | | ding ding ding |
what was wrong with the original comment you responded to then? granted i don't play at these limits (not even close), but if his opponent was indeed value betting (not sure that exactly applies since he didn't catch till the river... but it was kind of value betting, just on his draw i guess) the pot as sean suggests, isn't this pretty much what morta was saying to begin with
| Quote: | | What i think the guy was doing is he didnt want to juice the pot up to much in case another club fell and felt pot commited cause he probably put me on a flush draw. |
??
as to the bet on the river... well that's pretty obvious why his opponent made it, and considering the previous calls, he probably thought he had a good chance of doubling up - which he did.
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:28 pm GMT by supafrey
You don't see the difference between our villain NOT wanting to juice up the pot and wanting to juice up the pot?
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:32 pm GMT by ORGrinder
no... i understand, i guess i'm just interpreting the original statement differently.
Posted Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:35 pm GMT by supafrey
| ORGrinder wrote: | | no... i understand, i guess i'm just interpreting the original statement differently. |
wrongly?
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:00 am GMT by mortaleclipse
Alright that is what I want, a statement on what you guys think. Not telling me what I should and shouldnt do. Constructive critism is what I was looking for. Complex at these stakes, umm sure. Yes i called with 2nd nutz and lost. Shit happens and I lost a shit load of money cause of it. Juicin the pot theroy was one of many things that ran threw my head on how the hand was played not saying that was my final conclusion.
Was I not supposed to call, well if I didnt I would of never know and thought i blew away a 4k pot or maybe I would of thought I would save that all in for another battle. I will personally never know cause I did call and did lose. What I really wanted to know in the 45 minutes of me playing, this guy never got involved in a hand really and to call that size of a bet preflop was very strange by this villian. Looks like he made the right call on the right flop.
I wouldnt go out saying im this great player but I will say im a good player and my achivements have proven that. Just my actions have shown how stupid I can be.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:01 am GMT by supafrey
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:35 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| mortaleclipse wrote: | | Alright that is what I want, a statement on what you guys think. |
I think you played this hand as badly as you possibly could short of showing the other guy your cards.
| mortaleclipse wrote: | | Not telling me what I should and shouldnt do. |
You should bet the flop and the turn as well. You're probably going broke on this hand. I wouldnt go out saying im this great player but I will say im a good player and I definitely go broke here with top set. I get the money in a hell of a lot earlier though.
| mortaleclipse wrote: | | Constructive critism is what I was looking for. |
Don't do that anymore.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:20 am GMT by tame_deuces
From my standpoint, villain's action on the river is completely standard stuff and not 'weird' in the least given how the action went in the hand. I play river the same as villain given the action, and I don't see it as 'weird' in the least, and I don't play 10/20NL.
This is not a complex issue, it's just that the sheer amount of money adds alot of drama to it.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:52 am GMT by supafrey
Yeah - notice that I said it's USUALLY a complex stakes, but that this hand was shockingly simple. There's some serious bad assumptions going on in your last post though, mortal.
Also of note - A person can't be a "good poker player" but "bad at managing his money" at the same time. You're not a good poker player or you wouldn't have put yourself in that situation.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:58 am GMT by ORGrinder
| supa wrote: | | ORGrinder wrote: | | no... i understand, i guess i'm just interpreting the original statement differently. |
wrongly? |
lol. you're vanity is quite amusing to me. funny how you so badly need to boost your own self esteem at the expense of others. sad, really... but very amusing.
at any rate... not "wrongly", differently.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:07 am GMT by supafrey
No I'm pretty sure you misinterpreted what he said. That's called wrong.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:12 am GMT by UrAteUp
I see no problem with the way villian played this hand except for one. Calling a 5xBB bet with J9o. It paid off for him this time but that will happen rarely.
If your villian on this you have to be so damn happy that someone called your every bet including the river all-in push.
Sean I am glad you explained what Supa was trying to point out here. I thought I was thinking on the right track but wasn't sure till I read your explanation.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:12 am GMT by ORGrinder
uh... okay supa.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:19 am GMT by supafrey
I don't see what's so confusing.
OP made a pretty straightforward comment which he has since clarified to show that my initial understanding of it was in fact correct. You had a differing understanding of what he said - they can't both be right. There's one intent behind what he's saying. If mine was right, then yours was wrong.
If Agnes writes a post saying "murder is bad" and I say "yes, I agree with you that murder is bad" and then Mr. ORG says "well actually Agnes meant that murder is good" we can't BOTH be right.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:21 am GMT by shorn7
One other thing to keep in mind is that it is often correct to push all-in even when you think the probability of being called is quite less than if you made a smaller value bet. In terms of EV, if you call his bet only a fraction of the time, then he makes more $$ in the long run. This is often why, against a willing aopponent (like you were in this hand), it is best to overbet with the nuts.
Don't take supa's and others criticisms too much to heart here. We all make mistakes and need to improve our game. This hand you likely go broke no matter what with top set. I think it was the way that you went broke that was a bit strange. I probably get all or most of my $$ in on the flop and take my chances that I am ahead.
Anyway, interesting hand.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:25 am GMT by MrDarling
| ORGrinder wrote: | | .. but if his opponent was indeed value betting (not sure that exactly applies since he didn't catch till the river... |
Sorry, villain flopped the nut str8. He did only value bet and did give odds to a flush draw to attempt catch the flush.
| Quote: |
as to the bet on the river... well that's pretty obvious why his opponent made it, and considering the previous calls, he probably thought he had a good chance of doubling up - which he did. |
Again, Only a made hand will call any bet on the river. Villain though that OP either had a monster hand which he slowplayed or was on a draw. If OP was on a draw he wont call any bet. If he slow played, then he needed to pay for it, which he did.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:30 am GMT by ORGrinder
are we still talking about the same comment supa? LOL
i wasn't defending the play action... only suggesting that i thought the statement i quoted initially was accurate. i thought that seans example illustrated that based on my understanding of what was said in the comment in question.
again... not suggesting the play was correct. at any rate, i'm done arguing with you in this thread supa. if you need to continue to trash folks to boost your ego... fell free.
edit: thanks mrD... i obviously wasn't paying close enough attention to the original post. i thought he caught the str8 on the river. my bad. they were indeed value bets.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:36 am GMT by supafrey
The only person I've insulted on here in a very, very long time is CheezeWHIZ. Nice strawman, chief. Keep fighting the good fight.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:39 am GMT by UrAteUp
| supa wrote: | | The only person I've insulted on here in a very, very long time is CheezeWHIZ. Nice strawman, chief. Keep fighting the good fight. |
Cheeze can't be insulted Supa...first you have to have a brain to be insulted. We all insulted Cheeze each and every time we don't agree with his stupid comments and thoughts.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:32 pm GMT by mortaleclipse
Im getting alittle confused here on everyone diffrent opinions. Poorly played, what was I supposed to do, bluff him out of the pot or something? Push all in on the flop? Alitle help would be nice I suppose since everyone wants to tell me how poorly I played the hand and what I should do with my money. Supa you say I suck at cards, maybe true, i dunno. Im reading alot of dont do this dont do that but not alot of reason behind which is what im looking for. For example how the hell would you of played the hand. Put myself in that situation as in money wise or you talking about that hand?
I come to these forums for help and guidance on playing not you suck blah blah blah. Most of you are good players and really would like advice rather then mild insults.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:50 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | mortaleclipse wrote: | | Not telling me what I should and shouldnt do. |
You should bet the flop and the turn as well. You're probably going broke on this hand. I wouldnt go out saying im this great player but I will say im a good player and I definitely go broke here with top set. I get the money in a hell of a lot earlier though. |
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:08 pm GMT by mortaleclipse
Thanks sean
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:59 pm GMT by 1988 TR
Mortal, I don't think you played the hand too bad.
You raised 5 times which is fine. You made the same bet on the flop (Although I probably would have bet more given the flush & straight outs).
If you bet more on the flop, you can bet a lot on the turn getting most (If not all) of your money in the pot.
He made a loose call & flopped the perfect hand. Not much you can do about that.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:09 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| 1988 TR wrote: | | You made the same bet on the flop (Although I probably would have bet more given the flush & straight outs). |
Hero check/called all the way down.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:29 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: | | You made the same bet on the flop (Although I probably would have bet more given the flush & straight outs). |
Hero check/called all the way down. |
Yikes, well that's a problem. I would have popped him on the turn then when he bet 400 - With the same result, going broke.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:45 pm GMT by supafrey
While I would have raised with a set, the big mistake is the BR issues. Like huge mistake. I don't care if you were winning 90/10, you can't play like that or this kind of stuff happens.
Posted Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:21 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
I prolly lead flop and then bet big on turn and go broke when he reraises me all in. Check calling is very bad imo considering how many possible draw are out on this board. Obviously in this particular situation I'm going broke just as you did. But in future situations where villian has something like a flush draw or gutshot, you dont want to give him free cards to beat you when you have a massive hand like that.
(Massive being a hand that will be very difficult for you to lay down if he bets big, meaning if he does he, he'll prolly stack you.)
So in summary, your mistake wasn't calling on the river, it was not betting/raising on either the turn or river. Oh, and supa's obvious point that you shouldnt take your whole bankroll to one table.
Posted Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:47 am GMT by mortaleclipse
Check calling was my plan if I landed a set. You see my previous hand about a half an hour before that with my kings I was firing away with a simlar board that could possibly have alot of draws. Luckly on the turn I boated and had nut boat however I wanted to play this hand alittle diffrently. On the river I planed on firing a huge bullet but he beat me to the punch by going all in.
The point of this point was not to start a flame war on how it should of been played. The point was to show that playing with your entire bankroll can be a disaster no matter what. You see how strong I was and yes normally getting a set like that I would be firing like a mad man. I mean what can you do, villian didnt play a hand for like 45 minutes and he decides to call a big preflop bet with jack/9 offsuit. I mean bad call but at the right time.
Going back to square one, all you guys who ask if I should move on to higher stakes before im ready to handle the swings NO!! Look back to my thread to remind you of why.
Posted Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:27 am GMT by TheSalche
haven't you seen rounders?
|
|
