Is This a Horrible Move Here? |
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Posted Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:45 am GMT by witt10s
This guy complained for about 5-10 minutes about how bad my play was here.
PokerStars Game #6797797998: Tournament #34617556, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/10/28 - 01:30:02 (ET)
Table '34617556 1' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: HERO (1515 in chips)
Seat 2: Jacques28 (2985 in chips)
Seat 3: Preacher 11 (1185 in chips)
Seat 4: leos1980 (945 in chips)
Seat 5: Mikeeraiseit (1460 in chips)
Seat 6: Villain (1685 in chips)
Seat 7: jurgs (2910 in chips)
Seat 8: bababarino (815 in chips)
HERO: posts small blind 25
Jacques28: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HERO  
Preacher 11: calls 50
leos1980: folds
Mikeeraiseit: calls 50
Villain: calls 50
jurgs: calls 50
bababarino: calls 50
HERO: raises 1465 to 1515 and is all-in
Jacques28: folds
Preacher 11: folds
Mikeeraiseit: folds
Villain: calls 1465
jurgs: folds
bababarino: folds
*** FLOP ***   
*** TURN *** 
*** RIVER *** 
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HERO: shows (two pair, Aces and Queens)
Villain: shows   (two pair, Tens and Fives)
HERO collected 3280 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3280 | Rake 0
Board
Seat 1: HERO (small blind) showed and won (3280) with two pair, Aces and Queens
Seat 2: Jacques28 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Preacher 11 folded before Flop
Seat 4: leos1980 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Mikeeraiseit folded before Flop
Seat 6: Villain showed and lost with two pair, Tens and Fives
Seat 7: jurgs folded before Flop
Seat 8: bababarino (button) folded before Flop
So here's my thinking:
1. Five limpers which means weakness nearly every time at this level.
2. I have a decent hand I would like to do more with than just limp and see a flop with 6 others.
3. Table is pretty loose, so if I raise it up to something like in the 200-300 range, I probably can't really thin out the crowd, although I would create an outrageously large pot.
4. I doubt I will get a call and am happy picking up 325ish in blinds at this point in the game.
5. Generally I will only get calls from hands better than mine, but in this situation at this level if I am called I am most likely ahead or at least even money, right? The Big Blind looking down to find a big pair is a chance I am willing to take here.
6. There are limited chances to build chips in these tournies.
So what would you do in this situation?
Is raising a reasonable amount and taking a flop the better choice here?
This guy was pretty mad to see AQ offsuit, but what was he expecting?
Why do people limp/call all-ins? He knew he was a coinflip at best, right?
Ok, I am done bitching about this guy. I won the tourney but am trying not to be results oriented so please, comments on the early round all-in push.
Much thanks in advance.
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Posted Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:00 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I don't think you needed to push all-in, but no, it's not horrible. I think a raise to about 450-500 would clarify the situation adequately, though.
Calling with 55 is a much worse play. What hand could he possibly be way ahead of that he'd want to risk everything with only 50 committed? Some people seems to think a 50-50 is a dream situation these days...
Posted Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:03 pm GMT by Smudge
I agree, it was his play that was pretty horrible. I could understand it if he was very short stacked and thought that was the best chance he was going to get to double up but he wasnt, so that he decided to trust almost every chip he had to such a marginal hand was a very dodgy call.
Dont let poor loosers like that get to you.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:33 am GMT by shorn7
| Quote: | | 5. Generally I will only get calls from hands better than mine, but in this situation at this level if I am called I am most likely ahead or at least even money, right? The Big Blind looking down to find a big pair is a chance I am willing to take here. |
Not sure I agree with the bolded part of this. What hand (normally...let's ignore mega donkey's play for now) do you actually think you will be ahead of when called? JJ MAYBE, but otherwise anyone who calls this large an overbet is sitting on AA or KK.
I am with Diamond here. I raise to 4-500 will et you the same information while not risking your whole tournmanet hoping that no one has limped in with a really big pair.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:49 pm GMT by Skribbles
I like the push based on your description of the table.
Why do you guys (Diamond/Shorn) like raising off a third of your stack? If we get a caller and the flop is rags, then what? Pot will be equal to our stack so then we either:
a) Complete bluff and push
b) check and give up on the hand (which will have cost us 1/3 of our chips)
c) get bet into and fold
d) continution bet of half the pot (horrible as it would leave us with 500~
chips if we get c/r or flat called)
e) Something else???
Edit: Had it been a table were a raise to 250-300 would clear out the field I would lean that way. But based on your description.... my opinion is stated above.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:56 pm GMT by Jauron
I think in most spots in most SNG's Diamond's raise is the optimal play. That said I've seen tables, and maybe I'm assuming to much here, where a reasonable raise just doesn't cut it. People don't like to fold once they've entered the pot and anything short of the all-in move is likely to be met with a call or two. Being we are in the SB here I don't think the play was poor.
55 calling it however is near insanity given the blinds and what he had invested. It is not reasonable to think he's anything but at best 50-50 to any hand that would make this move this early and in more spots than not I think he's in far worse shape.
Don't get hung up over what a guy who called in this spot with a small pair thinks of your own play, we can make that move with any two cards and it's still a better play than his call.
Posted Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:57 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
After reading this again, I'm a little more inclined to agree with Skribbles' reasoning (I think the first time I misread the stacks and thought Hero had more).
450-500 is a little too much in terms of stack %. 300 or 350 might be a little better, but based off the table description, the table looks better and better.
I can think of one very good reason a push is better than most other raises: it eliminates the need to make any subsequent difficult decisions against loose players.
The problem with raising 500, as Skribbles said, is that the only option post flop is to push anyway. Plus, none of our options are good:
1. Everyone folds, which is the same result if we push.
2. We get called and have to push the flop almost regardless.
3. We get reraised all-in, and from the description of the table, we probably have to call anyway.
Thus, 500 was too much. If we had 3000 chips instead of 1500, I would prefer a raise to about 450, but we don't have that much. I think a raise to 300 might get the pot heads-up (but this becomes less likely given the table description) and leave us enough to make a few different plays post flop, but if we're going to raise any more than that, a push looks preferable.
Alternately, we could limp (but most of the time if we flop something, it will only be one pair, making post flop play more difficult), leaving the pot small and giving opponents a better chance to make a post flop mistake; or, we could do a "pot-sweetener" bet to about 200, probably getting a decent amount of calls, hoping to use our equity and spike a A or Q to win a large pot (but then we have to hope our equity holds up).
Thus, on a second reading,I think our best options are as follows:
1. Limp (not a fan of this, but it does prevent the pot from getting too large).
2. Raise small (~200) to build a pot, and then make a large value bet when/if you flop top pair or better.
3. A win-the-pot-here-or-race raise, basically a push.
The reason I had first suggested making a large raise is that usually, if we are reraised, we can safely lay it down--having a raise like that smooth called is incredibly rare at the higher stakes, but I have to remember the type of opponents we're facing. Therefore, I stand by my argument in a tougher game, but in context, I'm inclined to agree with Skribbles and Jauron.
Posted Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:44 am GMT by jimmer
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | I don't think you needed to push all-in, but no, it's not horrible. |
agreed
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | Calling with 55 is a much worse play. |
yeah, too right. why would you call a 28bb raise with pocket 5's preflop??? (inless you're short stacked, or drunk)
Posted Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:38 am GMT by Geno
At a decent standard table, I would never push for 6 times the pot amount with a hand like AQo because you can only be called by a better hand. Maybe at donk level it is ok but don't get into this habit or it will bite you in the ass pretty quickly later on.
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