5/10 NL hand; Comments Please |
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Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:40 pm GMT by shorn7
Game is 5/10, $1000 max. online. Game is pretty good, but I have no specific reads on anyone.
I get A7h in MP. Folded to me. I limp with a stack of $1040. Guy to my right raises to $40 to go, everyone else folds. I have begun to mix up my play with these types of hands in MP and LP, alternating limps with raises and some folds. With no read on this guy, I can't be sure what he has, but since I limped as first in from MP, it doesn't mean his raise is a real premium hand. I decide that my hand has enough value relative to his stack (about $1k), so I call the extra $30. $85 in the pot heads up.
Flop comes Ac 9d As. Could be a great flop, could be death. Instead of leading here, I decide that check-raising might be the better play as it will define my hand and his more clearly and may save me my stack versus if I just lead/call or check/call the whole way. I check and he leads for the pot. I CR, making it $300 to go. He thinks for a while and just calls. OK, not sure I like that or what that means, but I know he has some sort of hand.
Turn is the 2h, a complete blank. This is where I think I screwed up. Instead of continuing my CR with a lead bet, I decided to be wimpy, check, and hope to play SPP to showdown. He thinks for a second and then pushes for $750 roughly. So, there is about $1450 in the pot for me to call $750 or slightly less than 2-1. What do you guys do here with no read?
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Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:46 pm GMT by Dave B
my sense tells me that he has a big pair and no ace. He thought that you were representing an ace or thought that you could simply steal the pot w/ any raise. Your check made him think that you were purely stealing.
Now, this is why I lose I NL. Why in the heck would he push all in on the turn, why not bet $300-400 if he has a boat or a real good kicker? So I call, and am usually wrong and lose my stack.
Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:11 pm GMT by supafrey
Fold.
I try not to let my arbitrary hand-strength (dood i've got trips!) be overridden by my relative hand-strength (dood, so does he, prolly!).
This is the problem with playing Ax OOP - it snowballs into huge losses or small gains. You never know where you stand and often have to risk large amounts of money to find out. Don't be fooled just because it's only the case ace that beats you - you prolly should have sucked it up and risked a little bit of money earlier on (raise out turn, like you said, maybe) and found out.
But like they say - at high stakes it really could be anything here. A smart player would probably be doing these kinds of presses on you regardless of the two cards they were holding. You did limp and only call a raise, afterall. How many hands could you possibly have that you're willing to call a push with, in your opponents eyes? AJ? ATs? A9s, maybe? Position always wins.
Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:36 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Disclaimer: I don't play these stakes.
Fold preflop on this one, open-limping the pot with A7s in MP isn't any good. If you're going to open-limp and be OOP it's better to do it with hands that are easily defined as to where you are at in the hand. Hands like suited connectors, gappers, pocket pairs etc.
I'd say better to limp after an other limper with AXs (or raising, or whatever drives you all wild and goeey inside, it really isn't dreadfully important), cause then you got pos.
Like Supa said, these ace-hands will give you horrible situations...small gains and some big losses - more specifically the kind of situation you are in here.
Villain's line is...erm..weird though.
1. I can see him bluffing the turn if you check, but floating a doubly aced drawless flop check-raise just to bluff the turn?
2. And I can see a pocket you beat floating the flop to see if you are not just bluffing, but shoving the turn with it?
I probably have to have som kind of vibe telling me villain is either very aggro or very bad to call here.
Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:28 pm GMT by Jauron
I know it says to your right, but given this guy acting after you I assume he is in fact to your left.
Hands that make sense to be pushing in this spot after the check raise:
A10, AJ, 99, A2 and MAYBE 22 although that check raise should have gotten rid of a pair of 2's on the flop. I do not think there is any reason for AK or AQ to play it so strongly on the turn after the check. I am also inclined to rule out A9 since that hand still holds the nuts.
Weaker Aces are also a possibility although I am now starting to wonder if Villian would play KK-1010 this way. It seems more likely given the sheer aggresive play on the turn to sudden weakness.
While I agree that A7 on a full table is inviting trouble, I do not think we can easily lay it down after hitting the flop so hard. Problem is we can only beat 4 AX hands.
If I feel it is reasonable for Villian to play a med to large pair this way I will call, if I do not then I fold it (however I'd be more inclined to either lead out on the flop and turn or the way you played it lead out for a "safe" bet on the turn).
With no reads I do not think we can fold here as a random player might play a strong pair or ace this way. If nothing else it will teach me to play A7 in MP.
So... I call and take my medicine if I am wrong here, my BR should be able to absorb this hit anyways if I am playing within my limits. I can beat 8 hands that make sense, and I loose to around 8 hands that also make sense. Seems about the right price to me.
Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:40 pm GMT by shorn7
Thanks to all. A lot of good points made with many confirming what I thought about at the time.
I decided to lay it down. I couldn't put him on a hand that could legitimately call a close to pot-sized CR on the flop and then push the turn after I checked again that didn't contain an Ace. I suppose he could have put me on a FD and done this with KK-TT, but with no read (and he had no legit read on me), I wasn't comfortable enough to call the bet. I also felt that he pushed knowing that probably 95% of all players with an Ace call there, so he was confident. Unless he really thought I would play a PP or FD that way, then I was pretty certain I was beat and drawing to 3-9 outs (to win or split...I did not put him on a full here as there is little reason for him to push). On further review (and considering my pot equity was quite high assuming I add KK and QQ to all his possible Ace hands), I think it might have been a mistake to fold, but am not certain. Anyway, thanks for the feedback.
One thing is for sure. OOP with this hand SUCKS!
Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:36 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Players at these stakes don't often make a big bluff on such a scary board with nothing (this isn't to say it doesn't happen), so the key is, what could he have that you could beat? Answer is, not much. Even though you checked the turn, I don't see typical 5/10 NL players making this move with JJ-KK.
I agree with Supa. Your relative hand strength is virtually nil in this pot. There are a ton of more profitable situations like this, and good players learn not to go broke with top pair, two pair, or trips (not sets, but a pair on board).
Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:23 am GMT by MrDarling
I really don't get the C/R check move.
Its either showing a big weakness or a bad player monster.
I can only guess villain had either a hugh hand, and he though you would call an abnormal bet since you represented a monster (so maybe he does have the A9 or even 9's) or villain has a weak A and seen through your weakness. I don't see a normal player making such a move without an A, unless he his a known maniac or a real aggressor or a real good reader of people.
Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:49 am GMT by shorn7
Darling-
The CR/check move was a bit odd on my part no question. I actually didn't think he was going to call the CR since with 3 aces, I figured that he likely didn't have one. So, when he did call, I wasn't prepared to fire another shell at the pot with my hand, so I took the wimpy route and checked. A much better play (and one which would have allowed me to fold more confidently AND potentially not get bluffed out by KK-TT) would have been to lead the turn for $150 or so as sort of a blocker and then if he raised go away confidently.
This is a weakness for me....not always having the rest of the hand strategically played out in my head before pulling the trigger on a given street (i.e., how will I respond if he calls or pushes to this move?). I have been working on this, but don't always do it well (like here). It isn't such a big deal when you have position, but as we see in this hand, it is potentially a killer OOP.
Shorn
Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:41 am GMT by Jauron
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | Players at these stakes don't often make a big bluff on such a scary board with nothing (this isn't to say it doesn't happen), so the key is, what could he have that you could beat? Answer is, not much. Even though you checked the turn, I don't see typical 5/10 NL players making this move with JJ-KK.
I agree with Supa. Your relative hand strength is virtually nil in this pot. There are a ton of more profitable situations like this, and good players learn not to go broke with top pair, two pair, or trips (not sets, but a pair on board). |
See now while I am willing to buy that, let me turn it around and ask something. With that in mind, why does villain make that move if it's not likely to work either as a bluff or to pay him off? What is the point of the bet? Rainbow board, no straight draws that are reasonable.
Villain could put us on a weak ace here, does it not make more sense for him to throw out a bet we almost can’t fold to on the turn and then attempt to get the money in on the river? While the bet is pot sized it’s also for our stack showing a willingness to put some pressure on us. I have an issue with saying play is sophisticated enough to not make a bluff likely but at the same time not sophisticated enough to let a weaker ace off the hook.
Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:22 am GMT by shorn7
I should apologize. The board was not rainbow...it was Ac9cAs. So, this might change some thinking but in general not very much.
Posted Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:01 am GMT by UrAteUp
This hand is proof why I shy away from playing Ax hands unless they are suited. I agree with Supa, that these hands win so rarely that they have little value most of the time.
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