2/4 NL Hand; Comments Please |
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Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:20 am GMT by shorn7
Game is 2/4 $400 max online. I have just entered the game and posted behind the button. I recognize a few players at the table. Villain in this case I have played with a lot and I consider him a solid player who I believe generally wins. He has the capability of playing a lot of different hands in different positions, but generally has a very good hand when the big money goes in. In fact, I think he plays a lot like me.
I get AsKh. Two limpers to me including villain in MP. I make it $22 to go. SB calls, first limper folds, and villain calls. Villain has a little more than $400 left and I have $382. $68 in the pot, 3 way action.
Flop comes 9hThJh. SB and villain both check. I decide to make a healthy continuation bet on this flop with my 2nd nut flush draw, gutshot str8 draw and two overs. So, I lead for $60. SB folds. Villain thinks for a few seconds and check-raises me to $200 total (raise of $160 or a bit more than pot-sized).
What's your play?
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Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:37 am GMT by Dave B
ALL YOU CAN EAT BABY!
Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:05 pm GMT by shorn7
Really? You think this is a no brainer push Dave? I would love to hear your reasoning.
Shorn
Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:34 pm GMT by Jauron
I think I'm inclined to fold it. I think the best we are looking at is AJ and maybe the Ah. We could also be up against the made straight or a set. I am struggling to find any other hands that would check raise for over half their stack and still be considered solid. Even if it's just the flush draw it could easily be the Ah making our best draw moot. Pocket queens make no sense due to preflop action, although AQ with one being a heart might make sense but does villian limp with that? If he is tricky he could have flopped the flush as well with two lower cards.
We are also likely to see only one card meaning we either move it in or fold IMO. With what we have invested I think the fold is the better play.
Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:52 pm GMT by Dave B
I think he is trying to protect against a draw. So I see you having at least 13 outs, maybe 19. The only thing I am worried about is a made flush or trips, even 2 pair and I am still only a slight dog.
Since he didnt raise preflop, and also wouldnt push so hard w/ the nut flush, I think you have odds to move in.
DISCLAIMER: Did I mention that I lose at NL ring games on the rare occasion that I play them?
Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:39 pm GMT by groton
Its a Push
He has a Made hand but i dont think its the Nut Flush.
more likly the straght Limping with a KQ Suited or something along those lines.
so a Q comes we split and a Hart we win i feel
Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:32 pm GMT by ScanX
considering the description u made of him, I dont think an A or a K (or maybe even both) on turn and/or river will make u win the hand.
I dont mind drawing to the non nut flush but usually not when it's to the 4 to the flush and for all my chips.
The guy could have Ahx, leaving you w/ 8 outs or 6 if his kicker is already paired with the board.
He could have so many hands that beat you...
The check-raise is also a strength indicator...it's a move people do very rarely (unlike the normal raise behind the bettor) and most of the time they have the good when doing so (especially the kind of player you desribed him as)
I really hope u folded this, cause this is screaming trouble to me.
Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:49 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| ScanX wrote: | considering the description u made of him, I dont think an A or a K (or maybe even both) on turn and/or river will make u win the hand.
I dont mind drawing to the non nut flush but usually not when it's to the 4 to the flush and for all my chips.
The guy could have Ahx, leaving you w/ 8 outs or 6 if his kicker is already paired with the board.
He could have so many hands that beat you...
The check-raise is also a strength indicator...it's a move people do very rarely (unlike the normal raise behind the bettor) and most of the time they have the good when doing so (especially the kind of player you desribed him as)
I really hope u folded this, cause this is screaming trouble to me. |
I agree with everything Scan just said.
Easy fold in my book. I don't like "guessing game" Poker.
Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:39 pm GMT by kingetje
| groton wrote: |
so a Q comes we split and a Hart we win i feel |
and if nothing comes (most likely) we lose everything
Posted Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:10 am GMT by supafrey
dont cont bet 60 bucks.
Posted Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:41 am GMT by MrDarling
I see villain on a made flush, but my guess is it is a small one. He wants to keep you off drawing to the flush..
With 9 outs and no odds to call - Am not sure I can make this call. Especially since there is a chance he has the nuts flush or worse a str8 flush.
| supa wrote: | | dont cont bet 60 bucks. |
No to a pot size cont bet?
Why
Posted Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:44 am GMT by supafrey
Because with these stacks, anything you can accomplish with 60 you could accomplish with a lesser bet. And I'd rather not have to make a tough decision in a big pot where we're more likely feel greedy when I could instead excercise some degree of pot control.
But yeah.. In general pot bets on early streets are usually pretty silly. There. I said it.
Posted Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:57 am GMT by shorn7
Good point supa. The bet was too large given I had nothing at the time but a solid draw.
So, I ended up folding since like many of you said it was one of those situations where I couldn't be sure ANY of my draws were clean (except the Qh).
So, I fold and villain shows...98 of spades! Comments on his play? Since we play together a lot, I think I might need to mix it up versus him a little more since it appears he had a pretty solid read on me. 
Posted Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:04 am GMT by raisebot
| supa wrote: | | dont cont bet 60 bucks. |
Agreed.
And since you're last to act, a check on the flop would have been the move I make.
Face it, you have nothing but a draw; to something that may still not be good.
Why make that continuation bet and reopen the betting when you could have saw another card for free? You'd be better off to just check the flop, see what the turn brings, and go from there. Your continuation bet just got you into trouble, and pretty much gave away your weakness. If you flopped the nut flush, why would you make a pot size bet? To scare everyone out?
No reason not to check and see a free card.
Posted Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:33 am GMT by MrDarling
This is confusing...
I used to continues bet 1/3 pot which was almost never enough to get people to fold. Now when I bet close to the pot I win many more pots and when I do get called it almost always means they have a hand (or at least a decent draw - and not just A high) and I know how to continue.
Keep in mind I'm playing micro levels. Maybe that has a lot to do with it. I guess in these levels players don't look at the size of the bet with comparison to the pot - they just look at the size of the bet.
Posted Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:36 am GMT by Jauron
| raisebot wrote: | | supa wrote: | | dont cont bet 60 bucks. |
Agreed.
And since you're last to act, a check on the flop would have been the move I make.
Face it, you have nothing but a draw; to something that may still not be good.
Why make that continuation bet and reopen the betting when you could have saw another card for free? You'd be better off to just check the flop, see what the turn brings, and go from there. Your continuation bet just got you into trouble, and pretty much gave away your weakness. If you flopped the nut flush, why would you make a pot size bet? To scare everyone out?
No reason not to check and see a free card. |
Only if you are the type of player who doesn't bet his made hands. If hero holds KQ here and makes the same move he's getting villians stack.
How does a continuation bet show weakness here? Again as above only if you are the type of player who wont' bet a made hand is it showing weakness.
Posted Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:52 pm GMT by TheSalche
People at higher levels recognize continuation bets, and understand they exist and that most people use them.
This is a fold, I agree with supa here, a smaller cont bet makes this fold easier, and I don't think check/fold or check/call small bet is a horrible line.
Posted Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:36 pm GMT by ScanX
| raisebot wrote: | | supa wrote: | | dont cont bet 60 bucks. |
Agreed.
And since you're last to act, a check on the flop would have been the move I make.
Face it, you have nothing but a draw; to something that may still not be good.
Why make that continuation bet and reopen the betting when you could have saw another card for free? You'd be better off to just check the flop, see what the turn brings, and go from there. Your continuation bet just got you into trouble, and pretty much gave away your weakness. If you flopped the nut flush, why would you make a pot size bet? To scare everyone out?
No reason not to check and see a free card. |
I prefer a continuation bet (and yes a smaller one) for 2 reasons :
1) u have fold equity especially vs 1 player.
EDIT : didnt notice SB had called too...I still make the cont bet though since I got position :p
2) u want a free turn card ? the continuation bet is probably your ticket to a free river card.
I really think betting is more correct than checking behind unless u know the guy is a maniac that check-raises often or if he's a calling station...and a calling station isnt a horrible scenario since u can make a bet to build the pot and hide your hand.
Posted Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:46 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| raisebot wrote: | | If you flopped the nut flush, why would you make a pot size bet? |
Because I flopped the flush on a board that most likely either hit my opponent good or missed him completely.
Posted Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:03 am GMT by raisebot
| tame_deuces wrote: | | raisebot wrote: | | If you flopped the nut flush, why would you make a pot size bet? |
Because I flopped the flush on a board that most likely either hit my opponent good or missed him completely. |
I understand that, but you're up against 2 others seeing this flop; someone likely hit something on it. It's not that I believe a continuation bet is the worst play ever, just that against 2 others, a pot-size continuation bet would likely arouse suspicion.
I think a much smaller bet or a check would have been a better way to disguise what you're holding.
Of course, if you're heads up it's a different story.
Posted Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:43 pm GMT by ScanX
| raisebot wrote: | | tame_deuces wrote: | | raisebot wrote: | | If you flopped the nut flush, why would you make a pot size bet? |
Because I flopped the flush on a board that most likely either hit my opponent good or missed him completely. |
I understand that, but you're up against 2 others seeing this flop; someone likely hit something on it. It's not that I believe a continuation bet is the worst play ever, just that against 2 others, a pot-size continuation bet would likely arouse suspicion.
I think a much smaller bet or a check would have been a better way to disguise what you're holding.
Of course, if you're heads up it's a different story. |
betting the pot isnt that suspicious...but it isnt very smart either because as said before u can accomplish the same result (make them fold or get information) by betting 2/3rd of the pot.
u cant always be scared whenever you are against 2 players, they arent hitting everytime.
| Quote: | | I think a much smaller bet or a check would have been a better way to disguise what you're holding." |
A too small continuation bet is bad too...you're giving them odds to draw, you're showing weakness (or representing a monster...but usually they interpret it as weakness) so allowing them to bluff at you.
Checking isnt the best play either and you're not disguising your hand more by not betting...actually u disguise it more by betting and betting again on turn if flush comes...they will suspect u less to have a flush since you bet the flop.
Posted Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:43 pm GMT by Dave B
Does anyone like a min bet here on the flop? I do this a lot in tournaments w/ similar hands and it seems to scare the heck out of people.
Posted Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:43 pm GMT by aaronw
| raisebot wrote: | | tame_deuces wrote: | | raisebot wrote: | | If you flopped the nut flush, why would you make a pot size bet? |
Because I flopped the flush on a board that most likely either hit my opponent good or missed him completely. |
I understand that, but you're up against 2 others seeing this flop; someone likely hit something on it. It's not that I believe a continuation bet is the worst play ever, just that against 2 others, a pot-size continuation bet would likely arouse suspicion.
I think a much smaller bet or a check would have been a better way to disguise what you're holding.
Of course, if you're heads up it's a different story. |
I think this is a mistake. You should be betting the same if you hit a monster or nothing. You should not get into the habit of checking when you have a monster and then making continuation bets when you miss. Smart players will catch on. In this hand, I like a continuation bet of around 2/3 the pot. It has the best outcome. It is better than a smaller bet as it does not give your opponents great odds to draw. Also, it accomplishes the same as a full pot sized bet (you are just risking less when you get called)
Posted Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:40 pm GMT by ScanX
| Dave B wrote: | | Does anyone like a min bet here on the flop? I do this a lot in tournaments w/ similar hands and it seems to scare the heck out of people. |
min-betting here is terrible at NL cash game.
You're called (or raised since you show so much weakness) by anything that hasnt completely missed. so your fold equity is close to inexistant. If you are called you have to fire again on turn and this time 2/3 of the pot to finally get some info and maybe make people fold.
so why pay a bigger price for probably the same result u could have gotten on flop ?
You're obviously trying to represent strength, but that pattern just doesnt work well at all at cash...usually the people who do that are big fishes or people who buy-in for the minimum or close to that (so huge suckers too).
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