Pocket Fours- Step by Step |
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Posted Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:24 pm GMT by aaronw
Playing on Doyle's Room. Its 6max NL100. I don't have any reads on any of the players.
Seat 1 : tommybrush has $36.37
Seat 2 : Keefter has $99.50
Seat 3 : Scotty # has $109.75
Seat 4 : cbboy has $92.75
Seat 5 : drtybugr has $87.75
Seat 6 : UACat97 has $205.50
drtybugr is the dealer.
UACat97 posted small blind.
tommybrush posted big blind.
Game 68978 started with 6 players.
Seat 4 : cbboy has 4 4
Keefter called $1
Scotty # called $1
cbboy called $1
drtybugr folded.
UACat97 called $0.50
tommybrush raised $4
Keefter called $4
Scotty # has 10 seconds to respond.
Scotty # called $4
cbboy...
Should I call here for the implied odds? Also, should I have limped in the first time or should I have raised? After I get a few responses, I will post my action.
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Posted Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:35 pm GMT by zinn0
I like limping here since two others have limped before you. I also like calling the raise for reasons you have given.
Posted Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:39 pm GMT by ScanX
what zinn0 said
Posted Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:08 pm GMT by misterjokerboy
What Scan said about Zinn saying
Posted Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:54 pm GMT by aaronw
Ok. There seems to be a consensus on calling. That is what I did. I am in position going to the flop.
cbboy called $4
UACat97 folded.
Board cards 2 6 J
tommybrush checked.
Keefter checked.
Scotty # checked.
cbboy...
This wasn't really the flop I was looking for. It is checked to me. Do I take a stab at the pot? Or do I check behind and hope to spike a 4 on the turn.
Posted Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:22 pm GMT by zinn0
Take a stab at it. Bet 1/2 the pot and see what happens. If you get a caller I would consider slowing down on the turn. I'm also folding here if I get raised.
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:28 am GMT by MrDarling
what Zinn said (both times)
BB could have been a lame attempt at stealing, or he might actually have a hand. If he C/R fold quickly.
If he calls , don't bet anymore at all and fold to any bet.
If any other calls, they might be drawing...
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:04 am GMT by TheSalche
stabbing at this pot = a leak in your game
hope for the free card, if not fold
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:55 am GMT by zinn0
| TheSalche wrote: | stabbing at this pot = a leak in your game
hope for the free card, if not fold |
elaborate?
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:04 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
| TheSalche wrote: | stabbing at this pot = a leak in your game
hope for the free card, if not fold |
Um, theres a pretty good chance you're ahead here, might as well put a bet out.
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:29 pm GMT by groton
yah a good 11doller bet here probaly takes the pot down
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:14 pm GMT by aaronw
Well, while playing the hand I was going over my two options. 1) check and hope to spike a 4 or 2) Take a stab at the pot.
I decided to check and hope for a free card.
cbboy checked.
2 6 J 2
tommybrush checked.
Keefter checked.
Scotty # bet $10
cbboy...
Well, he bet just under half of the pot. What do I do here? Call? Raise? Fold?
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:31 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
fold.
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:18 pm GMT by groton
fold
he got a two had u bet the flop u take it down 
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:25 pm GMT by aaronw
| groton wrote: | fold
he got a two had u bet the flop u take it down |
What hand that contains a 2 is he limping in with then calling a raise with?
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:33 pm GMT by groton
A2 
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:40 pm GMT by aaronw
| groton wrote: | | A2 |
HAHAHA! It would have to be suited then.
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:00 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
If you didnt think you were ahead on the flop, what makes you think you're ahead now? Kid could easily have something like pocket 7s here, and since nobody played the jack, he thinks hes good.
You really have no clue what this guy could have, and you only have 3rd best pair. Easy fold.
Also, even if he is bluffing, he still has outs on the river, and theres no way you can bet river now if he checks river. Plus you have 2 guys behind you, one of which might be slowplaying... Theres too many variables, your hand is too weak, and half pot bet is too much to call.
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:04 pm GMT by aaronw
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | If you didnt think you were ahead on the flop, what makes you think you're ahead now? |
Well, It is possible that someone in EP was slow playing a big hand, like a flopped set or something. But when they all check again, It is unlikely. Also, what was going through my head when that guy made the bet is that he probably has a couple big cards (AK, KQ, AT, etc.) Also, he is in late position and he has seen everyone check in front of him (except me). He may be taking a stab at the pot.
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:12 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
Well if you think hes taking a stab, then you gotta reraise.
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:41 pm GMT by Phil14312
fold
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:54 pm GMT by aaronw
Well, I called (maybe stupidly). And the SB called as well.
cbboy called $10
tommybrush folded.
Keefter called $10
Board cards     
Keefter checked.
Scotty # bet $25
cbboy...
What do I do now? I got myself in this situation. Looking at it now, the better either Has a J or air. No way is he betting a smaller pocket pair here. He would check and hope I check behind. What do i do now? Call? Fold? Raise?
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:31 pm GMT by TheSalche
4 way pot, two suited on board, two overcards, one likely to pair an opponent, the only reason to bet here is to make sure nobody is trapping, and with a 4 way pot I feel like my opponents are usually trapping here.
It's too easy to bet out and say "oh he must have two clubs so if a club doesn't come then I'm fine." But if they're calling with two clubs, they also have two overcards to your hand, and they may feel pot committed to call a river bet if they hit say a pair of 10s and they will certainly call a bet if they hit a queen, king or ace.
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:44 pm GMT by zinn0
| aaronw wrote: | Well, I called (maybe stupidly). And the SB called as well.
cbboy called $10
tommybrush folded.
Keefter called $10
Board cards
Keefter checked.
Scotty # bet $25
cbboy...
What do I do now? I got myself in this situation. Looking at it now, the better either Has a J or air. No way is he betting a smaller pocket pair here. He would check and hope I check behind. What do i do now? Call? Fold? Raise? |
now you can fold.
Posted Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:02 pm GMT by aaronw
| zinn0 wrote: | | aaronw wrote: | Well, I called (maybe stupidly). And the SB called as well.
cbboy called $10
tommybrush folded.
Keefter called $10
Board cards
Keefter checked.
Scotty # bet $25
cbboy...
What do I do now? I got myself in this situation. Looking at it now, the better either Has a J or air. No way is he betting a smaller pocket pair here. He would check and hope I check behind. What do i do now? Call? Fold? Raise? |
now you can fold. |
What hand are you putting the better on? What hand do you think he has?
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:30 am GMT by Jefecaminador
He could have any number of hands. We basically have no information on what he could have since it was checked on the flop and we just checked called the turn. Theres a good chance hes bluffing, but also a good chance that we've lost
But there is 71$ in the pot and its 25 to us with the last guy likely folding. If you thought you were ahead on the turn, you gotta still think you're ahead now so call down.
Which brings us back to the original reason for calling in the first place... Because of the implied odds you get from hitting your set.
Well, you didnt hit your set, and now you're in a situation where you're calling down big bets with really no clue if you're ahead or not
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:20 am GMT by TheSalche
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | Well, you didnt hit your set, and now you're in a situation where you're calling down big bets with really no clue if you're ahead or not |
Bingo, it's a leak.
If you're playing a hand for set value, don't try to fool yourself into playing it for next to nothing pair value.
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:05 am GMT by zinn0
| aaronw wrote: | | What hand are you putting the better on? What hand do you think he has? |
What hand can you beat?
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:41 am GMT by aaronw
| zinn0 wrote: | | aaronw wrote: | | What hand are you putting the better on? What hand do you think he has? |
What hand can you beat? |
AK, AQ, KQ, T9, 87, other suited connectors, etc. Can you put him on any hand at all? Or are you merely saying that since he is betting big we have to fold?
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:08 pm GMT by zinn0
I'm saying that there are more hands that can beat us than there are hands we can beat.
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:15 pm GMT by aaronw
| zinn0 wrote: | | I'm saying that there are more hands that can beat us than there are hands we can beat. |
So what hand would you put him on? Personally, the only hand I can put him on on the river is a hand like JT, AJ, etc. or absolutely nothing.
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:44 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
| aaronw wrote: | | zinn0 wrote: | | I'm saying that there are more hands that can beat us than there are hands we can beat. |
So what hand would you put him on? Personally, the only hand I can put him on on the river is a hand like JT, AJ, etc. or absolutely nothing. |
Thats my point.... I have almost no clue what he could have. It could easily be a bluff or a value bet. And I think you're reducing his range of non-bluff hands too much. He's easily betting here with a 2 or a jack. And more than likely betting a pp 6's or higher.
But like I said, his chances of being on a bluff are high enough that its right to call down.
The real problem lies with the flop/turn play. I would either bet the flop and try to take it down, or either fold/raise the turn. I don't like being in a situation where I have absolutely no clue what my opponent is holding and having to call a 1/4 stack bet.
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:46 pm GMT by aaronw
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | aaronw wrote: | | zinn0 wrote: | | I'm saying that there are more hands that can beat us than there are hands we can beat. |
So what hand would you put him on? Personally, the only hand I can put him on on the river is a hand like JT, AJ, etc. or absolutely nothing. |
Thats my point.... I have almost no clue what he could have. It could easily be a bluff or a value bet. And I think you're reducing his range of non-bluff hands too much. He's easily betting here with a 2 or a jack. And more than likely betting a pp 6's or higher.
But like I said, his chances of being on a bluff are high enough that its right to call down.
The real problem lies with the flop/turn play. I would either bet the flop and try to take it down, or either fold/raise the turn. I don't like being in a situation where I have absolutely no clue what my opponent is holding and having to call a 1/4 stack bet. |
I don't think there is any chance he is betting a pocket pair here. If you were in his position, would you be betting pocket sevens? I know I wouldn't be. I would be checking and hoping for a free showdown
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:51 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
Based on the weak action showed by the 2 of you, if I have a pp higher than 6's i'm pretty comfortable with my posistion and would prolly bet out.
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:53 pm GMT by ScanX
totally forgot this thread...
so I call preflop
I check the flop, vs 3 opponents as the salche said it's a leak in your game to take a stab at that imo...u're going to lose money more often than not.
I fold the turn and I definitely fold the river especially with that 2nd caller on turn.
| Quote: | So what hand would you put him on?
|
does it really matter ?
so many hands beat you.
he could have 77 88 99 TT...that's prolly my guess if I have to.
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:57 pm GMT by aaronw
| ScanX wrote: | totally forgot this thread...
so I call preflop
I check the flop, vs 3 opponents as the salche said it's a leak in your game to take a stab at that imo...u're going to lose money more often than not.
I fold the turn and I definitely fold the river especially with that 2nd caller on turn.
| Quote: | So what hand would you put him on?
|
does it really matter ?
so many hands beat you.
he could have 77 88 99 TT...that's prolly my guess if I have to. |
There are always alot of hands that beat me. I just don't think we should automatically just say he has the best hand without atleast narrowing his range. Do you really think he is betting those hands on the river?
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:02 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
It sounds like you're trying to talk yourself into the fact that he MUST be bluffing. Many players can value bet a pp here.
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:08 pm GMT by aaronw
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | It sounds like you're trying to talk yourself into the fact that he MUST be bluffing. Many players can value bet a pp here. |
Yeah, that may be what I am doing. I am just unable to get my head around the fact that he would be value betting a PP here. I just don't think he would be doing that. If he had a PP here, I think he would try to check it down. I think if he had something like 77, 88, 99, he would try to get to a cheap showdown. I guess this may be a leak in my game. Personally, I can only put him on a J here or air. This may be a massive leak in my game... I am not too sure.
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:49 pm GMT by ScanX
This would be more a blocking bet than a value bet.
if he checks he might have to call a bet like $35-40 not being too certain about his chances.
if he bets 25 and if you call, there are good chances he might be good and it costs him "only" 25 if not. If you raise...well u got the point.
Narrowing the hands he might have is useless because he can have so many.
And he can have so many hands because u played it bad.
preflop : call call
flop : check
turn : call
river : call
total aggressivity : 0
total information collected : N/A
So now you're there talking yourself into making that crying call.
Next time save those $25 (and next time save the $10 too) and move on.
Sorry to be so abrupt but you are asking us to be mind-readers in this case.
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:23 pm GMT by aaronw
Well, I called the bet. I ended up winning the hand. He had KQo. I thought that I made a good call on the end. I just had trouble putting him on a hand that beat me. He ended up calling me an idiot, fish, donkey, etc. I thought that I played the hand well. However, looking back at it, it turns out that I did not play the hand all that well. Any other suggestions on how to play it instead? Just fold it on the turn?
Posted Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:56 pm GMT by ScanX
u basically only have 2 scenarios :
1) u play it for set value and fold to almost any bet
But if u plan that you should stick to it unless you're like heads up and the guy checks the flop to you then checks the turn to you then maybe it's ok to take a stab but if he calls u should just be ready to just check it down on river and hope u got enough.
There's a saying about pockets jacks that is "no set, no bet" because pocket J's is a tough hand to get away from, but at the same time it's such a "bad" hand that you have to force yourself to follow that motto very often if u dont want to bleed because of overplaying.
So imagine how weak a small PP is in a multiway pot after the flop if it hasnt hit...
This sounds weak/passive play etc, but this is the "we want to hit a set" scenario after all.
2) "whatever happens" you will try to get that pot
It sounded that is what you tried to accomplish but couldnt do it more wrongly, sorry.
As I said before, if you want this pot you go take it...call call call is not a pattern that will make u win with those hands in the long run.
I'm not trying to be a smartass by saying that, I'm just repeating what the pros have been saying and writing for decades : you want to be aggressive, not passive.
So if you want that pot, you take a stab at the flop and hope that will be enough. If you are called or raised I just give up completely...really no point trying to bluff someone out just to say you've done it as seen on WPT...remember, it's NL100
"I thought that I made a good call on the end. I just had trouble putting him on a hand that beat me."
I'm sorry again, but that is plain bullsh*t.
You made a good call because you won.
"You had trouble putting him on a hand that beat you" is not a valid excuse. Actually it's understandadble as you didnt have enough information, but saying time to justify your call doesnt stand.
This looks like a result-orientated comment.
I can put him on a lot of hands that beat you and you also completely ignored the guy that has been check-calling the turn who still had to act after you. Ok he's been so passive that your first thought is to put him on a busted flush draw or smthing...but he also might be holding a deuce who wanted to slowplay by calling the turn but is forced to check-call the river because of 2nd J falling. (After all there was no bet on flop...he could be the one with A2))
He could have that middle pair I was talking about but wont believe that one of you has a J so might call.
Anyway about that Scott, everyday, dozens times per day I see people checking behind the original raiser on the flop with top pair just to avoid being trapped.
And then when they see it's checked to them again they finally bet at it.
I really dont see why it's so impossible he has a J.
nice hand...but not ;)
Posted Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:10 am GMT by MrDarling
I never understand people who marry a small pocket pair. Its only a small pair.
I only play pp for set value. If I totally miss the flop I might take one of two routes :
1. In a scary flop and out of position , I'll check / fold it to any real resistance.
2. if I got position, and the pot doesn't look like it hit anybody I'll try to steal it. To steal it I'll bet, and bet big.
Taking a stab in NL is a big part of the game in my opinion. And it is not a complete bluff, you have a made hand with loads of way to improve.
Posted Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:33 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
| MrDarling wrote: |
Taking a stab in NL is a big part of the game in my opinion. And it is not a complete bluff, you have a made hand with loads of way to improve. |
I wouldn't say its a big part of the game, but its definately something you should be doing every so often imo.
The part about being a made hand with loads of ways to improve is a bit off though. Basically if you get called you're hoping for that 2 outer and nothing else.
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