Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:52 am GMT by witt10s
Very early on in low stakes S'n'G.
No info on anyone yet.
Iffy preflop call, but a couple of limpers so I figured I'd take a look at the flop.
PokerStars Game #6927328909: Tournament #35344727, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2006/11/07 - 06:30:23 (ET)
Table '35344727 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: pc_chips (1480 in chips)
Seat 2: BulldogsBrad (2200 in chips)
Seat 3: saultite1 (1720 in chips)
Seat 4: sponthree (1320 in chips)
Seat 5: pinda333 (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: Letalent (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: sha18 (780 in chips)
Seat 8: GT Inc (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: Hero (1500 in chips)
sponthree: posts small blind 10
pinda333: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero  
Letalent: folds
sha18: calls 20
GT Inc: calls 20
Hero: calls 20
pc_chips: calls 20
BulldogsBrad: folds
saultite1: folds
sponthree: calls 10
pinda333: checks
*** FLOP ***   
sponthree: checks
pinda333: checks
sha18: checks
GT Inc: bets 1480 and is all-in
Hero: ?
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Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:20 am GMT by shorn7
Hmmm. I think I lay it down since you aren't so invested and with him all-in your implied odds aren't good. He probably holds 1 of two limping hands: JT or KQ so I think there is a very good chance you are behind.
I don't risk my whole tourny this early, even with a hand as strong as yours.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:26 am GMT by Dave B
No raise preflop and all in vs a small pot? I call for sure. There is no way J10 or 2 pair should make an all in bet here. I a guessing he has a small flush draw and is semi-bluffing. I dont think he would (or should anyway) have slow played AA KK QQ for a set.
I would be more concerned about a 1.5-2x pot bet than an all in.
Granted, at a $5 SNG, people do just about anything.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:12 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
Call.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:15 pm GMT by cayouche
OMG, you have a backdoor royal flush draw, INSTA-CALL!!
Insta-call like there's no freakin' tomorrow, then invite the guy in a heads-up match.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:20 pm GMT by Ciso_B
Call, call, call.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:28 pm GMT by shorn7
I guess you guys all like to light $5 bills on fire too. I don't understand why you, with no information other than this is a $5 tournament, would want to just roll the dice getting 1.2 to 1 on just a draw. You could be way behind and there is no instance in which you are way ahead.
IMO, calling this bet isn't poker...it is flipping coins for $$ (and coins that could be weighted heavily against you).
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:33 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
| shorn7 wrote: |
IMO, calling this bet isn't poker...it is flipping coins for $$ (and coins that could be weighted heavily against you). |
The reason I think it is a pretty easy call is that Hero could very easily be ahead right here. I would say there is about a 30-35% chance you are ahead right now with MANY outs to take it if you aren't.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 12:51 pm GMT by TheSalche
If you've ever played ina $5 tournament, you'd realize how often this is some crap like JQ or K10.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:42 pm GMT by Dave B
I would say it is more like 50/50 that you are already ahead.
shorn: Why would someone go all in here for a tiny pot w/ something strong? A smart player just wouldnt do that. I am guessing J9 clubs or some BS like that.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:30 pm GMT by MrDarling
The guys hadn't play a hand yet. I think he has two pairs and doesn't want you to draw.
You are a little behind and if you feel like gamble, go a head and do it. You haven't invested too much time yet. If you win, its a nice double up to start with. If you lose, you can start a new one.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:57 pm GMT by cayouche
| shorn7 wrote: | I guess you guys all like to light $5 bills on fire too. I don't understand why you, with no information other than this is a $5 tournament, would want to just roll the dice getting 1.2 to 1 on just a draw. You could be way behind and there is no instance in which you are way ahead.
IMO, calling this bet isn't poker...it is flipping coins for $$ (and coins that could be weighted heavily against you). |
In a SNG, I call.
In CASH GAMES, unless it's pennies, I fold.
In the WSOP, I fold.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:31 pm GMT by UrAteUp
shorn,
Next time your facing a THP member and get a nut hand...push with it on the flop...lol...then collect the money from those people who called.
Oldest trick in the book is an overbet or push on the flop with a nut hand to make someone think you have nothing and want them to fold.
I say lay it down right here and come back for it when your ahead. You still have more then plenty of chips to wait for a better spot.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:39 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
| UrAteUp wrote: |
Oldest trick in the book is an overbet or push on the flop with a nut hand to make someone think you have nothing and want them to fold.
|
It may be the oldest trick in the book (for donkeys), but it is a terrible one. Why would you make this play if you flopped the straight? I just don't understand it. The person making this push could actually be leaving a ton of money at the table if his opponent had something like KQo or ATo.
Even if you expect the worst in that Villain flopped Broadway, you are still only a 60/40 underdog. Given those odds and the decent chance that you actually ARE ahead, I think this is a more obvious call every minute I think about it.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:35 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Soo...we should call because villain wouldn't shove with a strong hand, and it is wrong of villain to shove with a strong hand because he won't get any value from it?
Seems like UaU's oldest trick in the book would still work like a charm if you ask me.
On a sidenote, I read alot of bad stuff that usually go something like this:
1.) Never min-raise.
2.) Don't overbet/shove
3.) Fold he has you beat.
4.) Bet you probably have the best hand.
I'm sure at some level these were sound advice in some specific poker situation but as some general poker guideline for betting/calling/folding they are very bad. Period. It's not even worth discussing.
Personally I overbet, shove, min-raise, call down with what I assume is the best hand and sometimes when I think I'm beat I don't fold. It doesn't always work out, but usually it works just nicely - esp. the overbetting/shoving bit.
As for this hand - call it all day along.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:40 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
I fold, show my cards and then toss the guy an extra green chip just for "getting uppity in his pot."
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 5:56 pm GMT by Gunslinger
I think this is a call as well.
I agree with UAU and tame that the overbet with a strong hand is a good trick, I use it in the right spots and I believe it's made me more money in the long run. The first key to it being the right spot, though, is you've encountered some form of resistance, that makes you believe your opponent has some form of hand that he thinks you're trying to push him off of. In the OP, everyone is passing on this flop, and the villain overbet pushes. My reaction is that he wants everyone out, and the OP has a decent chance to be ahead, and a decent chance to hit his outs if he's not.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:27 pm GMT by snoogins47
I'd give advice but I actually do enjoy lighting $5 bills on fire. $20s and $50s are more fun, but they just don't offer as much bang for the buck.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:02 pm GMT by vyni
1480 into a 120 pot....
This guys representing that he's an idiot.
If I flop a set/straight early in a tourney, I'll overbet the hell out of it because I know there are idiots who I can get to call, but I'm trying to stretch it out... get him all in by the river. Not a push right away.
The guy pushes here, but only called preflop? He's not on a set. JT? Perhaps, but I'ld give myself better chances of making my flush than him holding JT. Moron chasing a straight or flush perhaps? That would be a dream come true here. AK, AQ, KQ... that would fear me the most, but most donks in tourneys overplay the hell out of them, so I'm guessing there would have been a raise preflop by this guy. That push just has me too confident that he's a fish.
I'ld feel I was very likely ahead here, and go ahead and make the call. I'l guess he's actually holding Ax and there's a fair chance of a split pot coming with that flop if I miss my flush. It's very early in the tourney... so what the heck. I wouldnt feel bad for busting out over this one.
Posted Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:31 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
Which leads us to a very interesting question.
Exactly how much is it worth to be doubled up on the first hand?
Would you pay 2x the entry fee if you started with 2x the chips as everyone else? Would you pay 1.5x?
Cause essentially thats what this question boils down to. What are the odds that you win the hand vs. how much that double up is worth to you.
Posted Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:13 am GMT by supafrey
| Jefecaminador wrote: | Which leads us to a very interesting question.
Exactly how much is it worth to be doubled up on the first hand?
Would you pay 2x the entry fee if you started with 2x the chips as everyone else? Would you pay 1.5x?
Cause essentially thats what this question boils down to. What are the odds that you win the hand vs. how much that double up is worth to you. |
I'd probably pay up to 3 times the fee, actually.
Posted Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:21 am GMT by Dave B
| supa wrote: | | Jefecaminador wrote: | Which leads us to a very interesting question.
Exactly how much is it worth to be doubled up on the first hand?
Would you pay 2x the entry fee if you started with 2x the chips as everyone else? Would you pay 1.5x?
Cause essentially thats what this question boils down to. What are the odds that you win the hand vs. how much that double up is worth to you. |
I'd probably pay up to 3 times the fee, actually. |
I hope this was sarcasm. I wouldnt pay more than 20-30%.
Posted Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:46 am GMT by UrAteUp
| Dave B wrote: | | supa wrote: | | Jefecaminador wrote: | Which leads us to a very interesting question.
Exactly how much is it worth to be doubled up on the first hand?
Would you pay 2x the entry fee if you started with 2x the chips as everyone else? Would you pay 1.5x?
Cause essentially thats what this question boils down to. What are the odds that you win the hand vs. how much that double up is worth to you. |
I'd probably pay up to 3 times the fee, actually. |
I hope this was sarcasm. I wouldnt pay more than 20-30%. |
Good players like you Dave only want a small edge...luckboxes like Supa want a large edge... 
Posted Wed Nov 08, 2006 11:07 am GMT by UrAteUp
| Dat_Dude wrote: | | UrAteUp wrote: |
Oldest trick in the book is an overbet or push on the flop with a nut hand to make someone think you have nothing and want them to fold.
|
It may be the oldest trick in the book (for donkeys), but it is a terrible one. Why would you make this play if you flopped the straight? I just don't understand it. The person making this push could actually be leaving a ton of money at the table if his opponent had something like KQo or ATo.
Even if you expect the worst in that Villain flopped Broadway, you are still only a 60/40 underdog. Given those odds and the decent chance that you actually ARE ahead, I think this is a more obvious call every minute I think about it. |
Why push here with a straight draw most people are asking. Two fold. Your going to get callers. Most lilely someone playing a strong A hand, someone who has a set, someone who hit two pair or someone who feels lucky on a flush draw. Donkeys come in every shape and size and all be it a bad call, several players will make them being behind.
Posted Wed Nov 08, 2006 4:55 pm GMT by witt10s
I made the call, partly just out of curiosity. At five bucks it was relatively easy to just click and hold my breath.
Here is the rest of the hand.
Hero: calls 1480 and is all-in
pc_chips: folds
sponthree: calls 1300 and is all-in
pinda333: folds
sha18: folds
*** TURN *** 
*** RIVER *** 
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GT Inc: shows   (a pair of Kings)
Hero: shows (two pair, Aces and Sevens)
Hero collected 360 from side pot
sponthree: shows   (two pair, Kings and Queens)
Hero collected 4020 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4380 Main pot 4020. Side pot 360. | Rake 0
Board
Seat 1: pc_chips folded on the Flop
Seat 2: BulldogsBrad folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: saultite1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: sponthree (small blind) showed and lost with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 5: pinda333 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Letalent folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: sha18 folded on the Flop
Seat 8: GT Inc showed and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 9: Hero showed and won (4380) with two pair, Aces and Sevens
Never expected to get another caller after me, and GT's push was just rediculous.
Posted Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:03 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
Well, I added GT to my buddy list for one. And for two, I didn't even notice the dude behind you!!! Also, the more I look at it, the call behind you was a pretty bad play. Between an all in and a call with that board, someone had to either have a straight or a set. There is no way I would think two pair is good.
Oh well, nice turn for you and great pot! Did you go on to win?
Posted Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:25 am GMT by witt10s
Yeah no way I am calling if I am the third guy unless I have JT or maybe a set.
I neglected to mention that this was a 27 person S'n'G which may actually change the strategy a little bit. If I double up (or evidently triple up) right off the bat in a 9 person tourney I will make the money a big percentage of the time, but with a larger field you can't just coast into the money with 3 or 4 thousand in chips.
I ended up taking 3rd after my AK lost to KT all in before the flop. Slightly dissapointing because the hand was for a massive chip lead. Donks all over this tourney.
Posted Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:35 am GMT by UrAteUp
| Dat_Dude wrote: | | And for two, I didn't even notice the dude behind you!!! Also, the more I look at it, the call behind you was a pretty bad play. Between an all in and a call with that board, someone had to either have a straight or a set. There is no way I would think two pair is good. |
I didn't mention the people left to act behind OP but I was thinking about it in my comments about this hand. I'm with Dat here. Surprised your hand held with a couple people left to act but glad to see your move worked for you. I been in this situation several times where I had a four flush after the flop and risked my tourney life right there. Sometimes it pays off big...sometimes it doesn't.
I wasn't shocked to see the first person with two pair make the move but that K3o player....he is dead money and someone you should look to play more often.
Posted Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:03 am GMT by Dave B
As is typical, Urateup didnt understand the actual situation.
The K3 was the one moving all in first. The KQ was the 2nd caller of the all in.
So those of us who thought the original all in was weak were spot on. Those who thought that he was using an all in vs a micro pot to "protect" his hand were wrong.
Urateup was wrong, like, 19 times in this post alone.
Posted Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:27 am GMT by cayouche
| Dave B wrote: | Urateup was wrong, like, 19 times in this post alone.
|
Hence, his new title.
Posted Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:34 pm GMT by TheSalche
lol when did UAU get that one? very nice, I like it
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