Posted Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:29 pm GMT by aaronw
$100NL. 6 max. no reads on the players.
http://www.pokerhand.org/?603757
my all in on the flop there isn't as big as it looks. There is something like $50 in the pot and the remaining villain has like $65 i believe. How do you think it was played? How do you like my re-raise PF? What do you think of that player's cold call of the raise and re-raise in the BB? Much thanks in advance.
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Posted Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:45 pm GMT by supafrey
why did you raise all in?
Posted Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:49 pm GMT by aaronw
| supa wrote: | | why did you raise all in? |
Easier than typing out the exact amount that he had?
Posted Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:50 pm GMT by supafrey
no i mean what is your reasoning for overbetting the pot.
Posted Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:52 pm GMT by aaronw
| supa wrote: | | no i mean what is your reasoning for overbetting the pot. |
My apologies. Well, if I bet 2/3 of the pot or full pot and he raises, I have to call anyway. If he just calls, he will be getting insane odds on my turn bet, which would put him all in. Also, with the cold call, I was thinking that he had a pair and may call.
Posted Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:05 pm GMT by supafrey
| aaronw wrote: | | supa wrote: | | no i mean what is your reasoning for overbetting the pot. |
My apologies. Well, if I bet 2/3 of the pot or full pot and he raises, I have to call anyway. If he just calls, he will be getting insane odds on my turn bet, which would put him all in. Also, with the cold call, I was thinking that he had a pair and may call. |
If he puts himself all in, we're happy.
If he gets insane odds on the turn, we're still winning.
The cold call / may call is iffy.
I'm just saying - we're very likely winning and we desperately want every dollar to get in there. Is this the BEST way?
Posted Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:10 pm GMT by aaronw
| supa wrote: | | aaronw wrote: | | supa wrote: | | no i mean what is your reasoning for overbetting the pot. |
My apologies. Well, if I bet 2/3 of the pot or full pot and he raises, I have to call anyway. If he just calls, he will be getting insane odds on my turn bet, which would put him all in. Also, with the cold call, I was thinking that he had a pair and may call. |
If he puts himself all in, we're happy.
If he gets insane odds on the turn, we're still winning.
The cold call / may call is iffy.
I'm just saying - we're very likely winning and we desperately want every dollar to get in there. Is this the BEST way? |
I'm not sure if that is the best way... what do you suggest? Bet 2/3 the pot and see how it goes from there?
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:54 am GMT by vyni
With the poor flop, you gotta be worried about chasing him off. Want that 60 before he leaves... Ballpark 50 in pot, give him something easy to call first.
He's got 60, I'ld throw another 15 out. I look weak and give him opportunity to respond. Check/call/raise is going to be way too obvious. Even if he pushes back we almost have to call him unless we had a read to suggest otherwise.
Keep him calling, get him in on the river. Even if he bails before it's all in, at least we get something. Our push is for all or nothing here.
We need be fairly wary of an Ace hitting the board or making a set, but if he's holding a pocket pair here... more times than not we have em (unless its aces of course).
2 callers to the massive preflop overbet though... we need keep our confidence in our kings in check here too.
imho
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:13 am GMT by TheSalche
I'm with supa here ... overbetting the pot = not the best way to get the money in. Looks like you made a huge preflop re-raise too.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:02 am GMT by aaronw
| vyni wrote: | | I'ld throw another 15 out. |
Really? Into a pot of approximately $50 pot? Giving him better than 4:1 odds to draw out? If he had an Ace I believe that he would have to mathematically call this bet (which I don't want him to do because I want them to make mistakes).
And TheSalche you also said "overbetting the pot = not the best way to get the money in. Looks like you made a huge preflop re-raise too."
What do you think the best way to get money in the pot here would be? And the raise PF was a bit big. I was just trying to put the guy all in who originally raised. Bad move?
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:06 am GMT by shorn7
Yeah, no reason to push so hard on the flop. Bet 1/2 pot to make the flush draw pay/look weak and if he wants to get it all in then fine. IF he has a set its all going in anyway, but if he has a Ten, you might scare hm off by pushing when you could have gotten more.
This highlights a very important NL concept: bet sizing. In a hand such as this, you need to size your bets such that you can get a hand like AT to commit all his money over the course of the hand. The best way to do this is in chunks...a bit on the flop, some more o the turn and the rest on the river (or all on the turn).
By putting it all in right away, you didn't give him the chance to make an error by calling with a Ten or a draw. With your hand strength, it is clear that there is no way you are going to fold for his remaining $60. So, finding the best way to get him to commit it is your only goal on the hand.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:50 am GMT by vyni
| aaronw wrote: | | vyni wrote: | | I'ld throw another 15 out. |
Really? Into a pot of approximately $50 pot? Giving him better than 4:1 odds to draw out? If he had an Ace I believe that he would have to mathematically call this bet (which I don't want him to do because I want them to make mistakes). |
My bets here would be based on his stack, and getting it all into the pot. Not on the pot itself, and I want to give him the odds to call. So long as he hasnt hit a set on the flop, or holding aces, more times that not we'll take this. We're not trying to win the current pot here, but rather make sure we get the rest of his stack into play.
He hasn't had chance to act on this flop yet, so we have nothing to gauge his hand from really. He called that massive overbet preflop, so I'ld assume he's holding a pocket pair here. If he was just a donk calling it with Ax... our push is going to scare him off. That tiny bet (25% of his stack) gives us a chance to see his reaction to the flop.
As to giving him 2 more cards to spike an ace with, if he did call in with Ax... if we're willing to push here how can we be worried about this? At least dragging him in to this, if an ace does drop we'll have an opportunity to decide if we should walk away from it. If he's on a pair... giving him chances of hitting his set... we have the exact same chances of that happening (and they're slim as hell).
Same goes for if he's on a flush draw: more times than not we'll take it away. If a spade drops on the turn, are we folding? Of course not, we're going to want to see it.
If he acted first and pushed, we'ld call. But we're acting first so we want to take it slow to keep him involved. imho
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:00 am GMT by aaronw
I don't think we want to give him odds to hit an A though, if that is what he has. However, I had the same thought process on what he had due to the ridiculous overcall. To be honest, I put him JJ or QQ. So if I was correct with my read, he would call the overbet on the flop.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:01 am GMT by supafrey
| aaronw wrote: | | I don't think we want to give him odds to hit an A though, if that is what he has. However, I had the same thought process on what he had due to the ridiculous overcall. To be honest, I put him JJ or QQ. So if I was correct with my read, he would call the overbet on the flop. |
this is horrible thinking. reread any of the posts in this thread to figure out why.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:04 am GMT by aaronw
| supa wrote: | | aaronw wrote: | | I don't think we want to give him odds to hit an A though, if that is what he has. However, I had the same thought process on what he had due to the ridiculous overcall. To be honest, I put him JJ or QQ. So if I was correct with my read, he would call the overbet on the flop. |
this is horrible thinking. reread any of the posts in this thread to figure out why. |
What is horrible thinking exactly? The fact that I don't want to give him odds to chase an Ace or that I put him on a hand that would call the push?
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:13 am GMT by tame_deuces
Basically you want to avoid making bets that will only make better hands call you and worse hands fold. It's the basic NL lesson.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:15 am GMT by aaronw
| tame_deuces wrote: | | Basically you want to avoid making bets that will only make better hands call you and worse hands fold. It's the basic NL lesson. |
I understand that concept. However, if he had a hand like QQ here. Would he not call this bet? That is a hand that would call me that I beat.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:19 am GMT by vyni
If he's chasing an ace, his call to any bet over about 4.50 is erroneous. Plus, we have another guy all in already, so he'ld have to realize 1, maybe even 2 (heck with us in too, maybe all) of the other aces are quite possible already spent. Unless he's a complete moron, I can't see where we're going to get any more out of him if he's chasing an ace here, unless its suited Ax spades which we're not going to back down from anyways.
JJ QQ would be the dream hands here.
I'ld follow turn with another bet, say 40% of his remaining money, rest on turn. If a spade does drop on the turn, keep it real low so we don't represent a flush in any way to scare him out.
He's going to, or should, realize quickly that we're just dragging his stack in, and he's going to get scared but we need keep him confident enough to actually do it. Or if he is on JJ QQ, we're going to see him push in: mission accomplished.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:23 am GMT by tame_deuces
| aaronw wrote: | | tame_deuces wrote: | | Basically you want to avoid making bets that will only make better hands call you and worse hands fold. It's the basic NL lesson. |
I understand that concept. However, if he had a hand like QQ here. Would he not call this bet? That is a hand that would call me that I beat. |
Maybe, but his preflop limp-call doesn't really look like JJ,QQ.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:26 am GMT by aaronw
| tame_deuces wrote: | | aaronw wrote: | | tame_deuces wrote: | | Basically you want to avoid making bets that will only make better hands call you and worse hands fold. It's the basic NL lesson. |
I understand that concept. However, if he had a hand like QQ here. Would he not call this bet? That is a hand that would call me that I beat. |
Maybe, but his preflop limp-call doesn't really look like JJ,QQ. |
Touche! I was thinking that he was in the BB for some odd reason.... What type of hand would you put him on here then? A mid PP like 55-99?
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:30 am GMT by tame_deuces
| aaronw wrote: |
Touche! I was thinking that he was in the BB for some odd reason.... What type of hand would you put him on here then? A mid PP like 55-99? |
PP would be my first thought yeah. Many in 6-max limp a little wider and can have connectors, suited aces and some just limp alot with all kinds of hands (well my observation).
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:35 am GMT by aaronw
| tame_deuces wrote: | | aaronw wrote: |
Touche! I was thinking that he was in the BB for some odd reason.... What type of hand would you put him on here then? A mid PP like 55-99? |
PP would be my first thought yeah. Many in 6-max limp a little wider and can have connectors, suited aces etc too (well my observation). |
Thats a fair assessment. I have seen that alot as well. Either way, I put him on a PP that would call the push. So the basic consensus is that I should bet about 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot on the flop instead of overbet?
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:25 pm GMT by aaronw
Anyway, I guess I should post the results. The original raiser had 77. And the guy who limped then called my raise ended up calling my all in. He had AQo. The turn and river blanked and I won. So I guess the best way to play it would be to bet like 1/2 the pot instead of the over bet. Thanks for the help.
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