Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:41 am GMT by aaronw
Again its $100NL. 6 max. No reads on the players. What do I do here? Call or Fold? Thanks again. And sorry for all the questions tonight guys.
http://www.pokerhand.org/?603806
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Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:16 am GMT by MrDarling
Had the exact situation in $10NL and wanted to ask.
Villain bet I raise he pushed...
I folded. Though in lower limits his move probably suggest he didn't have A's. More like something stronger like KJo or maybe even the good ol' nuts A4o...
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:36 am GMT by Poto
This is a pretty clear fold without reads IMO. I expect to see Q's-A's here most of the time.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:09 am GMT by shorn7
Easy fold. This is one reason I don't like to re-raise all the time with QQ. Once there is a raise in front of me, the hand has more value as a set-drawing hand unless villain's stack is short enough that we don't mind playing for it all now. In this spot, that wasn't the case.
As you played it, I would fold without a read or notes on the guy saying that I had seen him push all-in preflop in a similar situation with AK, AQ, or a pair lower than Queens.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:28 am GMT by Geno
I think starting every post with 'no reads' rather makes the answers moot. With reads, this is not an easy fold at all in my opinion but without reads, it arguably is.
Just seems a little silly to be throwing in big pair scenarios involving either pre-flop re-raises or overcards on the flop and asking for an answer which you already know.............
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:32 am GMT by aaronw
| shorn7 wrote: | | Easy fold. This is one reason I don't like to re-raise all the time with QQ. Once there is a raise in front of me, the hand has more value as a set-drawing hand |
Even though I am not very experienced, I would say that this is a definite re-raise in 6 max. (I may be wrong). I think playing QQ for set value is a bit weak. I like to re-raise and take control of the hand and see where I am at. Most times they fold. Sometimes they call. Lets hypothetically, we put him on AA. What would happen if the flop came 2-2-3 or something like that. There is absolutely no way I can get away from the hand now. I wouldn't know if he is playing AK as the nuts because he thinks I couldn't of hit that board or if he has AA. I think a re-raise is needed PF to see where we are at and take control of the pot. Is this the wrong thought process with this hand?
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:40 am GMT by shorn7
| Quote: | | Lets hypothetically, we put him on AA. What would happen if the flop came 2-2-3 or something like that. There is absolutely no way I can get away from the hand now. |
I respectfully disagree. Good NL play is EXACTLY about knowing when to fold a hand like QQ on a board like you described. Arbitrarily going to the felt with a hand like this is definitely poor play. Add to that, in this hand you have position so you will get to see his move each street. I agree that playing the hand my way will make you have to call on the flop you described. But, if you do and he has AK, most players will likely give it up on the turn if they don't improve. My point is, while QQ is a strong hand in its own right, it isn't one you want to risk a ton of chips with before seeing more cards (especially as in this case where you re-raised and then had to fold).
I think the re-raise preflop with this hand is villain dependent too. IF this guy has been raising light a lot, then I don't mind the play. But if you don't have that read, then I think the call preflop makes more sesne as a potential stack saver than anything.
Let's not forget that most of our money in NL is made not on big pairs like AA-QQ...rather it is made on small pairs and suited connectors that hit the flop and bust someone who is willing to overplay AA-QQ. Strive to be the buster and not the bustee.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:18 am GMT by tame_deuces
I'd say QQ is a re-raising hand most of the time in 6-max, as 6-max often offers somewhat less implied odds for sets and connectors - as people raise more light they stack off more rarely, honorable exceptions apply because many horrible players play 6-max.
May stack you a few times when played hard, but hey - gloves off and get down and dirty, we're playing poker.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:24 am GMT by aaronw
| shorn7 wrote: | | Quote: | | Lets hypothetically, we put him on AA. What would happen if the flop came 2-2-3 or something like that. There is absolutely no way I can get away from the hand now. |
I respectfully disagree. Good NL play is EXACTLY about knowing when to fold a hand like QQ on a board like you described. Arbitrarily going to the felt with a hand like this is definitely poor play. Add to that, in this hand you have position so you will get to see his move each street. I agree that playing the hand my way will make you have to call on the flop you described. But, if you do and he has AK, most players will likely give it up on the turn if they don't improve. My point is, while QQ is a strong hand in its own right, it isn't one you want to risk a ton of chips with before seeing more cards (especially as in this case where you re-raised and then had to fold).
I think the re-raise preflop with this hand is villain dependent too. IF this guy has been raising light a lot, then I don't mind the play. But if you don't have that read, then I think the call preflop makes more sesne as a potential stack saver than anything.
Let's not forget that most of our money in NL is made not on big pairs like AA-QQ...rather it is made on small pairs and suited connectors that hit the flop and bust someone who is willing to overplay AA-QQ. Strive to be the buster and not the bustee. |
Well, I don't think I am good enough to fold QQ on that flop. The villain could easily have 77-JJ. What if he has JJ. The turn is an 6. Making the board 2-2-3-6. He will more than likely continue to bet. Are you suggesting that I fold QQ in this position because I think he has AA or KK?
Anyway, I ended up folding the hand. I don't think there is many hands I am beating that are 4-betting me all in there. I am a massive underdog to AA and KK. The only other hand that he MAY do this with is AK and I don't think I want to risk my whole stack on a coinflip. Also, he may do this with QQ, but this is unlikely as I have two of the queens.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:34 am GMT by shorn7
| Quote: | | The only other hand that he MAY do this with is AK and I don't think I want to risk my whole stack on a coinflip. |
This is exactly why a re-raise is risky. A solid opponent can get you to fold your hand which has a lot of value to it in position without you seeing more cards.
| Quote: | Well, I don't think I am good enough to fold QQ on that flop. The villain could easily have 77-JJ. What if he has JJ. The turn is an 6. Making the board 2-2-3-6. He will more than likely continue to bet. Are you suggesting that I fold QQ in this position because I think he has AA or KK?
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Not necessarily. All I said was that arbitrarily going to the felt with an overpair is horrible policy in NL. More often than not, you will be behind when all the $$ goes in and have little chance to catch up. What I am saying is that QQ is a hand that you have to "play poker" with...it isn't a no brainer hand and therefore I don't like to commit too much of my stack preflop, especially in position.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:41 am GMT by aaronw
| shorn7 wrote: | | Quote: | | The only other hand that he MAY do this with is AK and I don't think I want to risk my whole stack on a coinflip. |
This is exactly why a re-raise is risky. A solid opponent can get you to fold your hand which has a lot of value to it in position without you seeing more cards.
| Quote: | Well, I don't think I am good enough to fold QQ on that flop. The villain could easily have 77-JJ. What if he has JJ. The turn is an 6. Making the board 2-2-3-6. He will more than likely continue to bet. Are you suggesting that I fold QQ in this position because I think he has AA or KK?
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Not necessarily. All I said was that arbitrarily going to the felt with an overpair is horrible policy in NL. More often than not, you will be behind when all the $$ goes in and have little chance to catch up. What I am saying is that QQ is a hand that you have to "play poker" with...it isn't a no brainer hand and therefore I don't like to commit too much of my stack preflop, especially in position. |
I am not making it policy to felt an overpair. I have folded overpairs many times. There is a bit of a difference between going to the felt with QQ on a board of 2-2-3 compared to QQ on a board of 7h-8h-9h.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:10 pm GMT by shorn7
| Quote: | | I am not making it policy to felt an overpair. I have folded overpairs many times. There is a bit of a difference between going to the felt with QQ on a board of 2-2-3 compared to QQ on a board of 7h-8h-9h. |
Of course there is and I am not suggesting that there isnt any difference. But, in my experience and opinion, QQ (unless you flop a third or make a str8) is a hand that will generally win a small pot or lose a big one. All I am suggesting is that re-raising preflop (1) increases the likelihood of a big pot and (2) will make you feel compelled to felt because the pot is bigger when it is likely you are behind. For me, I want to avoid those types of situations with this hand and am willing to potnetially give up a small amount of equity in order to avoid making big mistakes.
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:16 pm GMT by aaronw
| shorn7 wrote: | | Quote: | | I am not making it policy to felt an overpair. I have folded overpairs many times. There is a bit of a difference between going to the felt with QQ on a board of 2-2-3 compared to QQ on a board of 7h-8h-9h. |
Of course there is and I am not suggesting that there isnt any difference. But, in my experience and opinion, QQ (unless you flop a third or make a str8) is a hand that will generally win a small pot or lose a big one. All I am suggesting is that re-raising preflop (1) increases the likelihood of a big pot and (2) will make you feel compelled to felt because the pot is bigger when it is likely you are behind. For me, I want to avoid those types of situations with this hand and am willing to potnetially give up a small amount of equity in order to avoid making big mistakes. |
Thats fair. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this part of the hand.  Atleast we agree that I should have folded. lol
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:25 pm GMT by groton
six handed that was a iffy fold since im feeling a AK-A10
or a PP of JJ-88
and yes i could make that all in Reraise with a High Mediam PP six handed
Posted Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:30 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Even 6-handed, such a large overbet of the pot pre-flop usually means AA, KK, or rarely AK or QQ, at least in my experience.
Unless I'd regularly seen this guy get out of line, I'm folding here.
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