SB Many limpers Step by Step |
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Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:15 pm GMT by KingOHearts
Sort of an interesting hand, I think. Play along.
Game is 50NL on absolute. Full table of 9. I am SB and have 5 limpers to me when I see K9s in my hand. I complete BB checks and the flop comes K68 rainbow. Pot is $4.00 and I am first to act.
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Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:32 pm GMT by aaronw
I always like to be the aggressor. I would say come out and bet about $2.50 - $3.00. If we do not bet, we do not gain any information about our opponents' hands, which is what we want to do.
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:56 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
I'd check. I hate betting into 5 people here, and I'm looking for a reason to fold.
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:04 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Check. I disagree with aaron that we don't gain information without betting. For someone to bet into this kind of board with so many in the hand is usually an indicator of some kind of strength or a desire to steal.
I say we check, see who (if anyone) bets and then reevaluate when it's back on us. I need to know more before I decide to put any money in the middle.
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:05 pm GMT by KingOHearts
Sorry, but I am with <aaron> <edit: I was posting from my phone earlier and thought it was Sean that was saying bet for info> here. I want to know where I stand....I am planning on laying down to any pushback.
I bet half pot ($2.00) and it goes fold fold call fold fold fold. So I am HU with $8.00 in the pot when the turn comes 9c. ??
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:07 pm GMT by supafrey
errr.. bad flop play. I like the check/raise or the check/fold.
As played, continue betting, obviously. You just sucked out on Kx
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:09 pm GMT by aaronw
So nobody likes betting out on this flop to see where we are? What if the last player to act makes a pot-sized bet? He could be doing this as a steal, with a draw, etc. and we have no idea where we stand. You guys would prefer just to check/fold?
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:21 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| aaronw wrote: | | So nobody likes betting out on this flop to see where we are? What if the last player to act makes a pot-sized bet? He could be doing this as a steal, with a draw, etc. and we have no idea where we stand. You guys would prefer just to check/fold? |
In that case, usually yes, for a couple reasons.
1. Hand strength. Top pair with a bad kicker might be good here, but I'm not looking to play a big pot with it.
2. Position. Not just absolute but relative position. Not only would I have to worry about the bettor in LP, but also all the people between me and him who might now decide to raise.
Betting "to see where you are" is usually a pretty bad strategy, actually. You should be able to get some sense of where you are from how everyone else acts. If you're planning to fold to any signs of strength anyway, then betting only has value as a steal, really, and it's hard to steal with so many left to act behind us. Or say you get called. What card other than the 9 is really going to help us define our hand? Betting for information has a time and a place, but I don't think this is it.
I'm with supa here. If we have decent relative position to the bettor and he makes a weak bet, I prefer a check-raise. If we're out of position both absolutely and relatively against a strong bet, I prefer the check-fold.
As for the turn, make a good-sized bet here as it was played.
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:26 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | a whole buncha stuff I agree with |
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:30 pm GMT by KingOHearts
OK thanks I appreciate the input. Before I continue tho...say I check and get one half pot bet back to me?
So...pot is 8 I lead out with 5 and villian reraises me to 15. Pot is now 28 and its 10 for me to call with top 2 pair.
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:44 pm GMT by supafrey
| KingOHearts wrote: | OK thanks I appreciate the input. Before I continue tho...say I check and get one half pot bet back to me?
So...pot is 8 I lead out with 5 and villian reraises me to 15. Pot is now 28 and its 10 for me to call with top 2 pair. |
congratulations, your "bet for info" got you no info. Now you're playing a huge pot out of position and have to go broke with it. All in/big raise.
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:14 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| supafrey wrote: | | congratulations, your "bet for info" got you no info. Now you're playing a huge pot out of position and have to go broke with it. All in/big raise. |
And weep when he turns over 57.
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:19 pm GMT by KingOHearts
supa you are right this is now a slippery slope. I go into the tank and reason it this way for better or worse.... I make it 25 pct chance he is thinking I am still stealing and he has not much in his hand. 25 pct or maybe more he has a hand but is behind and thinking he is good....KQ or a lower 2 pair. and maybe 50 pct he has a hand that is ahead 66 99 5T 57 (I discount KK). if I push and he has me beat he will call and I am broke unless I hit a 4 outer. If my read is right its 50 50 I am behind and the pot is giving me better than that so I can see one more before deciding whether to push it all in. I make the call but I am not happy.
turn brings a blessed 9....the nuts. again assuming villian is not KK. hand plays itself from here....how to get the most value??
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:54 pm GMT by supafrey
pushy pushy
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:45 pm GMT by KingOHearts
I agree the flop play was wrong.
And one piece of info you dont have is that although its 50NL we both have big stacks, each over 100.
Given that, so you still push? I dont see why I would. If I push, who calls me? Most likely only a hand that is way ahead of me. And then my dumb $2 bet on the flop turns into a bonafide Titanic with only 4 outs to improve. I could fold and just let it go, but I think there is a reasonable chance I am actually ahead and for almost 3:1 I can see another card and evaluate. The danger is of course that I let him have a card and he improves rather than me.
I concede that I stepped in shit and came out smelling like roses on this one. Just to close it out, I made a weak bet on the river, he reraised, I pushed he called and I pretty much cleaned him out. But I know I was very lucky. He flopped a set of 6s. My saving grace was that his play was worse than mine.
I think this is a really interesting hand though...from the large number of limpers to getting a tiny piece of the flop to improving a little on the turn. Thanks for the input all.
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:47 pm GMT by supafrey
i meant pushy pushy on the river.
all of my other advice is for the earlier streets.
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:10 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| KingOHearts wrote: | | My saving grace was that his play was worse than mine. |
I don't see how. He flops a set, the turn isn't great, but the river is money. You talk about only being behind KK, but he's not losing to a lot on that board either.
Posted Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:52 pm GMT by KingOHearts
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: |
I don't see how. He flops a set, the turn isn't great, but the river is money. You talk about only being behind KK, but he's not losing to a lot on that board either. |
True, it was a bad break for him. But if he reraises with his flopped set instead of being cute this is avoided. I rarely slow play flopped sets, it so often goes wrong.
Good learning hand. Illustrative of how one small misstep can snowball quickly given the proper circumstances.
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