Lets start with the bankroll |
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Posted Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:13 pm GMT by Eusebio
Hi Guys!
I am in a bit of a dilemma.
I better start start at the beginning, so you can make yourself a picture of the whole situation!
I started to care more about the topic poker in june after watching all the stuff onTV and decided to practice and learn. My goal was and is still to come to the point where I can win a little pocketmoney along with the dayjob and then see how things turn out. I am aware that making a living from poker is almost the same as if you say "I wanna be a Hollywood-Star" and its not a goal i want to achieve... it would just be an option if it turns out to be "my" game and I am really able to win some serious money over the long run.
So I started reading books and i now finished my 12th, they helped me very much and I got all the basic information I needed, i am now planning to go over them again, but more in the "learing" manner... analyzing what is written there...
Along with the books I started playing online, both cashgames and tournaments and I guess i have been through what everybody experiences: winnings in Cashgames, just to have most of it lost on a terrible bad beat (or at least it seems terrible at the moment, but actually its not)... I made crazy winnings in low Buy-In tourneys... followed by losingstreaks, that lastet longer...
I also played live tourneys with some pretty good results, but never cashed (17th of 100, 20th of 120, 45th of 150)
While losing, I often felt like Phil Hellmuth, aksing myself "How could he have called me with this!?!?!".
The problem right now is that I want to start playing seriuos, means that I want to record my results and try to built a bankroll, moving up in stakes, if I make it...
The problem is where to start...
I´ve read (here in the forum too) that the limits you play, the maximum buy in, should be about 10x the Buy-In.
So is it better to deposit 250$ and start playing with guyswho are just not giving a sh.. and seem to outdraw you on every hand, because they simply dont care about the 10 bucks they have to call, or would it be better to sit down on a table with a higher limit, where the people have some skill... Taking 250$ out of my saving account is not a big deal, but taking out like 500-1000$ would make me feel pretty weird.
So the dilemma: playing with players i think i cannot learn from at a limit I feel comfortable or playing with better players at limits I feel a bit (or a lot) strange...
I know that playing poker and investing money is the only way I can make my play better... so what should it cost me...
thanks
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Posted Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:03 pm GMT by MrDarling
easy - play where you are comfortable in.
You actually want to play with people who don't care about money and call against pots odds. if you put money in the pot when you are ahead you will make money in the long run!
Sure, they will suck out on you often. But as long as your BR is big enough to suffer these suck outs, you are ok!
The trick is not to tile when it happens.
If you play above your limit you will play scared poker and will probably lose your entire BR quickly
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:02 am GMT by jimmer
| Eusebio wrote: | | So is it better to deposit 250$ and start playing with guyswho are just not giving a sh.. and seem to outdraw you on every hand, because they simply dont care about the 10 bucks they have to call, |
I don't think you should read too much into a player by the levels they are playing. To a certain degree you are right, you do get players who'll happily ago all-in preflop with junk, but you also get alot of players at this level who play the micro limits because they don't have much money. These guys would think very carefully before risking $3 alone $10.
I'm going through a really rough time at the mo, I can't seem to win at all. Therefore I've lowered my stakes and now only play the $0.10-$0.20. If anything, I care more about $10 now, than I did 6 months ago.
What I'm saying is exactly the same as Mr Darling. You need to play at a level you are comfortable at.
I would also suggest you also need to prove you can consistantly win at those levels before progressing.
(p.s I think it's great that you've read all those books, but IMO if you are going to progress you need to get in lots of hours playing). Play, say....50 hours and then review the situation, do it again after say 200 hours)
Good luck
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:23 am GMT by Eusebio
Thanks for your advice!
I played a lot beside reading those books, but i didnt think a lot about how am i really doing... I was blaming everybody, except me, if i had lost a big hand...
Now i am starting to go through the hand histories and i analyze my hands... i did this so far with s´n´g´s i concentrated on, the last weeks, but i think that i should start now with cashgames... there i can practise best, what i learned the last 5 month...
actually i wanted to start playing live. We have 2 pretty good cardrooms here in vienna... one, the concorde card casino, is considered the best in europe, but the problem there is, that you cannot beat the house:
once the pot is over 30 € (1/2 Blinds) you have to pay at least 5€... 3 Rake, 1 Jackpot, 1 Tip... its pretty impossible to win...
so i stick with the onlinerooms and i will try to build a bankroll and beat those microgames until i move up...
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:30 am GMT by pm_french
My thoughts on this subject are this:
You want to know whether to stick $250 in and play on the $25NL tables or put $1K and play on the $100NL tables right?
To me, bank roll management is only really important when you actually develop a bank roll after lots of play (say you develop your $250 into $5K) or if the money you deposit is money that has to be used to start an empire.
If this $250 is money you can afford to lose then try playing on the 0.50/1.00NL from the scratch with it. if you go bust the so be it and bung in more cash. If this $250 is money you can't afford to lose then just stick in $50 and see how you get on on the $25NL tables.
I just don't get it myself when people talk about sticking $10 into their account and then playing on the 0.01/0.02 Limit tables as ''this is all their bank roll with allow them''. F.UCK that - what's $10? If you can't afford to lose $10 then you really shouldn't be gambling at all anyway. Stick in an amount you can afford to lose and play on the highest possible tables. This is the best way to give your cash a boost and then you can consider proper management.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:51 am GMT by jimmer
| pm_french wrote: | | If you can't afford to lose $10 then you really shouldn't be gambling at all anyway |
Who are you to judge how much money one person can afford?
| pm_french wrote: | | Stick in an amount you can afford to lose and play on the highest possible tables. |
But what happens if you lose that? Do you never play again?
If his bankroll is $250, his bankroll is $250. End of.
| pm_french wrote: | | To me, bank roll management is only really important when you actually develop a bank roll after lots of play |
...or have more money in reserve.
| pm_french wrote: | | If this $250 is money you can afford to lose then try playing on the 0.50/1.00NL from the scratch with it. if you go bust the so be it and bung in more cash. |
therfore your bankroll would actually be bigger than $250 in the first place.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:01 am GMT by jimmer
| Eusebio wrote: | | I started to care more about the topic poker in june after watching all the stuff onTV and decided to practice and learn. |
Eusebio, tell us more. What did you originally see on TV that made you think, "hey, i wanna play poker".
I guess the the standard answer would be "money", but you've already said you think you've got just as much chance as being a Hollywood star, so there must of been something else?
Just interested
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:26 am GMT by Hurricane Ham
If you play above your bankroll, you WILL go broke. Don't listen to anything pm_french said, it's horrible advice. Put in an amount your comfortable with, and play appropriate stakes. 200-300 big bets for limit games, 20-30 buyins for NL/PL games.
As far as "playing with people who don't care about $10," that's a good thing. Playing against players who aren't good is what you want. Bad players=$$$ for you. Adjust your play accordingly to the crappy players. Don't bluff, value bet value bet value bet, etc. Take your lumps at the lower levels, put in the hours, embrace the ridiculous beats. Playing against "people with skill" is a hell of a lot tougher than playing against the drunk gambooler, even if it doesn't appear so on the surface.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:39 am GMT by zinn0
| pm_french wrote: | My thoughts on this subject are this:
You want to know whether to stick $250 in and play on the $25NL tables or put $1K and play on the $100NL tables right?
To me, bank roll management is only really important when you actually develop a bank roll after lots of play (say you develop your $250 into $5K) or if the money you deposit is money that has to be used to start an empire.
If this $250 is money you can afford to lose then try playing on the 0.50/1.00NL from the scratch with it. if you go bust the so be it and bung in more cash. If this $250 is money you can't afford to lose then just stick in $50 and see how you get on on the $25NL tables.
I just don't get it myself when people talk about sticking $10 into their account and then playing on the 0.01/0.02 Limit tables as ''this is all their bank roll with allow them''. F.UCK that - what's $10? If you can't afford to lose $10 then you really shouldn't be gambling at all anyway. Stick in an amount you can afford to lose and play on the highest possible tables. This is the best way to give your cash a boost and then you can consider proper management. |
Worst. post. ever.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:51 am GMT by Eusebio
Thanks pm_french for your answer.
I guess i will have to dominate those games until i go up the stairs and I deposited today 250$.
I will stick to the 25$ NL cashgames and see how it works...
The plan is, to play a 100 Hands every session and then have a look at the hand history... taking notes with how much money i sat down, and with how much i log off...
Like everybody i thought that poker is all about bluffing, but after the TV Boom i started reading in the internet about it and my impression was that it was more a strategical game, than gambling.
You put yourself in a situation, where you have a better spot to win, than your opponents and then you strike...
It was so interesting to mr how many ways to win there are and I know that if a game exites me i have it in my head 24/7... i used to play a tabletopgame and i can proudly say that i am on of the best in the "germanspeakingarea" of europe... but the thing in this game is: everybody can set up an army that is almost unbeatable, which is boring to play, because you dont have to think... imagine you play chess and your opponent has 4 Queens...
In poker there are 52 Cards and everybody has to deal with the same napkins they get dealt 
So the strategy-part would work well for me
I am very good at math, eventhough my old marks back in school said something entirely different :D
The game is just great.. i think i dont have to tell u guys
I know that when i am serious about something,i do everything to get better (and what is more important: i start thinking about it all the time, rethink situations,etc.)
those points made me make the decision: Try everything possible to get good at this! If you can make it, your life will probably improve and you can fullfil some dreams (and i am not talking about havin millions on your bankaccount), even if the chance that you can make it is somewhere close to 0%...
If you do not try, you wont make it for sure...
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:53 am GMT by Eusebio
thx hurrican and zinn0
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:09 am GMT by pm_french
| zinn0 wrote: | | pm_french wrote: | My thoughts on this subject are this:
You want to know whether to stick $250 in and play on the $25NL tables or put $1K and play on the $100NL tables right?
To me, bank roll management is only really important when you actually develop a bank roll after lots of play (say you develop your $250 into $5K) or if the money you deposit is money that has to be used to start an empire.
If this $250 is money you can afford to lose then try playing on the 0.50/1.00NL from the scratch with it. if you go bust the so be it and bung in more cash. If this $250 is money you can't afford to lose then just stick in $50 and see how you get on on the $25NL tables.
I just don't get it myself when people talk about sticking $10 into their account and then playing on the 0.01/0.02 Limit tables as ''this is all their bank roll with allow them''. F.UCK that - what's $10? If you can't afford to lose $10 then you really shouldn't be gambling at all anyway. Stick in an amount you can afford to lose and play on the highest possible tables. This is the best way to give your cash a boost and then you can consider proper management. |
Worst. post. ever. |
Sorry, but can you explain why this post is so wrong....
If you can afford to lose $200 in one session isn't it better to play on the 0.50/1 NL table than the 0.10/0.25? If you bust out then sound, you reload at a time when you can next afford this money. After all, the important thing here is you have agreed you are WILLING (note this is different than wanting) to lose this money. HOWEVER, if you want to preserve this $200 as long as you can THEN you need to consider BR management. After all, the whole point of BR management is making sure you don't lose everything in one go.
The second point of mine was that the OP only wanted to play on the 0.10/0.25 tables (max buy in $25) so I commented that if this is the level he wanted to play at there is no real need to stick in the full $250. He could just stick in $50 and see how he gets on with it ($50 should be fine for a session at these tables). However, if he has decided that he has $250 that he wants to deposit and preserve then he should stick at the 0.10/0.25 levels for the time being.
The third point was, I find it ridiculous that people stick in $10 and want to do their best to preserve this as long as they can. However, as it was pointed out to me, I am not really in any position to say how much people can or can't afford to lose. Though I still think, if you are in a situation in life where you have to seriously defend $10 then perhaps you should not get into poker for cash.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:38 am GMT by zinn0
As my esteemed colleague Ham has already pointed out, if you play above your BR, you will go busto. There are no if's and's or but's about it. I don't understand why you think depositing a tiny amount and then risking 1/2 or more of the money you have available at one table is a good thing.
I don't see anything wrong with depositing X amount of dollars and playing within the limits of said deposit. Nurture the tiny amount that you have available, play good poker and watch it grow. No sense in risking it all in one sitting. Period.
Oh and also, playing within your BR will also allow you to rack up a lot of hands, and experience is always a good thing.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:55 am GMT by pm_french
Hey Zinn0 -
Don't get me wrong - I totally understand the reasons for BR management maybe this didn't come across originally. My main point though is that there is a difference in using BRM for the short term (Eg, one session) compared with the long term. There is also a difference in whether or not someone seriously wants to build a roll or whether they are more concerned about playing time for their money.
If you have $250 and you want to protect this for as long as you can then play the $25NL tables (though strictly speaking, based on the guidelines the pro's recommend even this is too high ). However, if you're trying to gauge what levels to play for in a single session then you wouldn't go wrong with 2 chunks of 100X BB (or even 3 chunks of 60XBB if you wanted to be even more careful).
If you are trying to build a decent roll then there is no point in depositing a small sum of cash and grinding out for hours when you're only making a few bucks a night. Stick in the $50 and if it goes it goes. However, if you want maximum hands for your deposit then again, you should observe the correct guidelines. As for risking it all in one go - again this comes down to how much you can afford to lose (and are willing to lose). If you can afford to redeposit another $50 the following week then it becomes less of an issue. If little Johnny gets $10 off his granny and wants to make this last then this is when he should stick to the 1/2c NL tables.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:58 am GMT by zinn0
| pm_french wrote: | | If you are trying to build a decent roll then there is no point in depositing a small sum of cash and grinding out for hours when you're only making a few bucks a night. |
It worked fine for me.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:01 am GMT by cayouche
| zinn0 wrote: | As my esteemed colleague Ham has already pointed out, if you play above your BR, you will go busto. There are no if's and's or but's about it. I don't understand why you think depositing a tiny amount and then risking 1/2 or more of the money you have available at one table is a good thing.
I don't see anything wrong with depositing X amount of dollars and playing within the limits of said deposit. Nurture the tiny amount that you have available, play good poker and watch it grow. No sense in risking it all in one sitting. Period.
Oh and also, playing within your BR will also allow you to rack up a lot of hands, and experience is always a good thing. |
Yeah exactly. If I can afford $50, that doesn't mean I can afford losing it 25 times. If I put in $50, and I play NL25, good chance I will go bust, due to variance. If I do it 20 times, chances are I might go bust all 20 times. Not because I'm a bad player, but only due to variance. RoR is just too high. Variance will happen, even if you're a good player.
Even the best players here had and will always have variance.
As they said, the trick is to play in a level you are comfortable in. If you can beat NL25, that doesn't mean you can beat NL100. I would try out NL25 (I know it's full of fishes, but ain't sharks supposed to eat fish??), and when you're ready and have the BR, move to NL50, then to NL100, etc.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:15 am GMT by pm_french
Another crucial difference with my situation and I why I advocate the all or nothing approach I'm ''blessed' with a bird who hates my sitting on the PC all night playing poker so if I'm lucky I'll get to have 1-2 sessions a week.
THEREFORE - If my budget was $50 a week then it is deposited in one go and I see how I get on. If variance chomps on my ar5e then no worries I walk away and stick another deposit in the following session because the next session would be the following Friday or so. Obviously, if someone is in a situation where they are able to play every day then the BRM comes a bit more important and the daily grind less of an issue as you are not going to want to stick $50 every night (unless you can afford to do so)....perhaps.
If I could delete my original post I would 
Bad advice for those lucky enough to be able to play everynight though I still support it for anyone who's situation only allows them one or two sessions a week.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:18 am GMT by MrDarling
PM, two points.
One, You always need to manage your BR. However, as you stated, your BR doesn't have to be all online or on one site. You NEED to decided an amount of money you can leave without and dedicate it to Poker and that is your BR. If all you can afford at a moment is $10 , then you NEED to take care of that BR and play within your limit.
Remember, even if you are the best player in the world you can still lose a full buyin in one hand. So only a fool will put his entire BR at risk.
Second, Most of us do seems to consider our on site BR when playing. When I just deposit $100 , $10 was not that much for me and I was playing less scared poker (maybe even reckless). Now that my BR has dwindled down to $20, $10 is a much higher amount and I am much more careful with it - almost to the point of playing scared poker. True, I can easily afford to deposit another $100 but I still see my online BR as my BR and try to play within these limit. It teaches me patients, self control and hopefully, makes me a better player.
Good luck
Danny
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:43 am GMT by tame_deuces
While I completely agree with all posts on bankroll management, I don't see anything inherently wrong with taking a stab at a higher limit like PM suggests either, thought I don't think playing at the highest limits affordable is too clever, but taking a stab at slightly higher limits won't be too bad.
A typical example of taking a stab would be if you are playing NL50 with a 1200$ roll, and then you decide to play some NL100 and try your luck, you aren't really rolled too high for the game but it won't kill you to lose 2-3 buy-ins either.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:06 pm GMT by Eusebio
Here is an example why I was thinking of playing higher limits
| Quote: | ***** Hand History for Game 5453361050 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, November 22, 11:48:22 ET 2006
Table Beginners #1305349 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 10: Akustick ( $31.65 )
Seat 8: Eusebio1210 ( $32.03 )
Seat 5: poakher69 ( $19.20 )
Seat 4: Orka70 ( $41.85 )
Seat 3: Chemist81 ( $26.05 )
Seat 1: powermanne ( $12.16 )
Seat 9: MeAndMy88 ( $16.50 )
Seat 7: HSchlaemmer ( $6.33 )
Seat 2: kovigabo ( $4.65 )
Seat 6: saju87 ( $6.80 )
saju87 posts small blind $0.10.
HSchlaemmer posts big blind $0.25.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Eusebio1210  
Eusebio1210 raises $1
MeAndMy88 folds
Akustick folds
powermanne calls $1
kovigabo folds
Chemist81 folds
Orka70 calls $1
poakher69 folds
saju87 folds
HSchlaemmer calls $0.75
** Dealing Flop **   
HSchlaemmer checks
Eusebio1210 bets $3
powermanne folds
Orka70 calls $3
HSchlaemmer calls $3
** Dealing Turn ** 
HSchlaemmer checks
Eusebio1210 bets $3
Orka70 raises $8
HSchlaemmer is all-In $2.33
Eusebio1210 folds
** Dealing River ** 
Orka70 shows   two pairs, Eights and Sixes.
HSchlaemmer doesn't show   a pair of Tens.
Orka70 wins $6.29 from side pot #1 with two pairs, Eights and Sixes.
Orka70 wins $19.09 from the main pot with two pairs, Eights and Sixes. |
I know that on the long run etc :D
it just seems to happen all the time :D
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:27 pm GMT by jimmer
| pm_french wrote: | | If you can afford to lose $200 in one session isn't it better to play on the 0.50/1 NL table than the 0.10/0.25? If you bust out then sound, you reload at a time when you can next afford this money. |
I think your getting confused with the whole "bankroll" issue. If your bankroll is $200, your bankroll is $200. End of. Once the money's gone, it's ....well....gone!
If you have $200 in one site, $400 in another, $300 in your bank, $1,600 in cash under your bed and $500 coming from next months wages, your total bankroll is $3,000. If you then lose $200, your bankroll drops to $2,800.
From reading your notes, you're suggesting that he should risk all $250 in one go and if he loses it, find some more elsewhere. He doesn't have anywhere else to get the money from as his BANKROLL IS $250.
It the end of the day, if going to risk it all in one go, your doing exactly that. RISKING IT! You could double up, you could go broke.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:57 pm GMT by supafrey
| Eusebio wrote: | Here is an example why I was thinking of playing higher limits
| Quote: | ***** Hand History for Game 5453361050 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, November 22, 11:48:22 ET 2006
Table Beginners #1305349 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 10: Akustick ( $31.65 )
Seat 8: Eusebio1210 ( $32.03 )
Seat 5: poakher69 ( $19.20 )
Seat 4: Orka70 ( $41.85 )
Seat 3: Chemist81 ( $26.05 )
Seat 1: powermanne ( $12.16 )
Seat 9: MeAndMy88 ( $16.50 )
Seat 7: HSchlaemmer ( $6.33 )
Seat 2: kovigabo ( $4.65 )
Seat 6: saju87 ( $6.80 )
saju87 posts small blind $0.10.
HSchlaemmer posts big blind $0.25.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Eusebio1210
Eusebio1210 raises $1
MeAndMy88 folds
Akustick folds
powermanne calls $1
kovigabo folds
Chemist81 folds
Orka70 calls $1
poakher69 folds
saju87 folds
HSchlaemmer calls $0.75
** Dealing Flop **
HSchlaemmer checks
Eusebio1210 bets $3
powermanne folds
Orka70 calls $3
HSchlaemmer calls $3
** Dealing Turn **
HSchlaemmer checks
Eusebio1210 bets $3
Orka70 raises $8
HSchlaemmer is all-In $2.33
Eusebio1210 folds
** Dealing River **
Orka70 shows two pairs, Eights and Sixes.
HSchlaemmer doesn't show a pair of Tens.
Orka70 wins $6.29 from side pot #1 with two pairs, Eights and Sixes.
Orka70 wins $19.09 from the main pot with two pairs, Eights and Sixes. |
I know that on the long run etc :D
it just seems to happen all the time :D |
why wouldn't this happen at higher limits?
http://www.pokerhand.org/?625533
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:10 pm GMT by Eusebio
I guess the Hand you posted is representing the higher limits very good...
I dont know how long you guys were playing and what reads anybody had...
you made a stab at a flop thats likely to have missed everybody, but had the bad luck, that somebody had a piece of it... you fired a second bullet and cought your wondercard on the river... nice bluff that turned out to catch the nuts...
The onlyerror the guy made, was to make the call preflop
This guys call is imo just bad, and wouldnt happen if the guy would have had to call 10$ or 15$, but i cannot overbet the pot like this...
I played with this guy for an hour and i played very tight, so my bets screamed "Big PP"... the guy had 5 outs... and one to act behind him...
so this was just bad play... but this is just the opinion of a fish
But i dont really care about this hand, because i will have to face those problems at those limits... i will just have to find a strategy...
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:28 pm GMT by Miss_J
is that a joke.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:50 pm GMT by supafrey
No that's not a joke. That's $1200 I won.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:56 pm GMT by Miss_J
if it were the other way around and he was betting first what would you do?
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:01 pm GMT by supafrey
folded a while back. I thought I could get him to fold a 7. Clearly it didn't work. Thankfully I have more luck than skill.
That was a rollercoaster day for the bankroll, let me just tell you that much.
Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:06 pm GMT by aaronw
| supafrey wrote: | | Thankfully I have more luck than skill. |
I would rather be lucky than good any day. Luck is near impossible to beat but when you are good, there is always some better.
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