Concepts at odds: Control pot size or aggro. to protect? |
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Posted Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:35 am GMT by shorn7
Here is a hand that in retrospect I think I played quite poorly and it illustrates two concepts that are somewhat at odds with each other in NLHE: When playing a pot with a strong 1 pair hand, is it better to keep the pot small all the time or sometimes to move more aggressively at the pot early so that you can make draws pay dearly AND define your hand enough so that if you get resistance protect your stack and also limit the chance that you get bluffed out? Here is the hand:
Stack sizes are about equal. No specific reads on the players. I am in MP with KsQs. UTG limps, I limp, folded to SB who completes, BB raps the table for 4-way action.
Flop comes Kh 7c 6h. Both blinds check. UTG bets 3/4 of the pot. FIRST DILEMMA: I have a lot of choices here...I can flat call his bet, make a small raise, or make a big raise. Folding is out of the question IMO. Merits of each play:
1. Flat call: Control pot size with 1 pair hand; potentially see if blinds are sandbagging; in multi-way pot, keep chip commitment low until the turn in case a draw card hits.
2. Small raise: Somewhat define hand more and with position, get to see the reaction of blinds and UTG which may define where they stand; potentially lose blinds with raise and get pot heads up; maybe even win pot outright now.
3. Large raise: Really define hand and if called be relatively certain we are behid or someone has a monster draw; win hand right now.
Obviously, there are drawbacks to each as well (giving draws a cheap price to continue by flat calling, lose vlaue from weaker Kings if they fold by raising).
Anyway, I chose to flat call the bet here for the reasons stated above (which I now think is a mistake). SB also calls and BB folds.
Turn comes 9c for board of Kh 7c 6h 9c. SB and UTG check. Now what? This is the problem with flat calling the flop multi-way with a good, but not great, made hand (as opposed to heads up play where you could argue it makes more sense). I have no clue where I stand here, the board completed 1 draw (T8) and now has another draw added to it. My lack of aggression on the flop has now put a lot more $$ at risk than was potentially necessary with my good hand. So what to do?
Well, I think checking is out of the question here against two players. If I am going to continue in this pot, I think I need to fore. There is also a good chance that I can win it right now with a bet and a bet here (if called) makes it more likely that I won't get bluffed out on the river.
So, I bet 3/4 of the pot. SB now check raises me the minimum and UTG folds. UGH! This completely blows. Now, my lack of flop aggression is really potentially costing me more chips than it should. What do you do here?
I decided to flat call the raise (potentially another error) since I felt that if the SB were semibluffing with a draw, I could very well still be ahead here and I was getting over 4-1 to call. This is what Sklansky refers to as a "strong" call in position as I show a lot of strength with it. I just didn't see that many hands that the SB would check twice with and then check-raise the turn. A set seeme dvery unlikely because would he really check the turn hoping that someone would bet with all those draws out there? I didn't think so.
So, the river comes Js for final board of Kh 7c 6h 9c Js. SB IMMEDIATELY open pushes for a bit more than the size of the pot. Good grief. Now I am in a really tough spot to call a ton of $$ based on what could be a really flimsy read (missed draw). Again, if I had raised earlier, perhaps I coud have won this hand with less fight or at least found out more cheaply that I was dead and could have folded early. Do I really now want to commit a lot of my remaining stack on what is essentially a bluff catcher hand now? Not without a very good read.
So, I folded. Net result? I committed close the $300 on this hand and made mistakes on potentially EVERY street (except for the preflop limp). Very very poor play.
Keep this in mind when you find yourself in a situation in your game like the one above. Sometimes it is much better to commit $$ early so that you can make easier decisions later and potnetially save more as well.
Shorn
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Posted Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:25 am GMT by odlozilik
| Quote: | | So, I folded. Net result? I committed close the $300 on this hand and made mistakes on potentially EVERY street (except for the preflop limp). Very very poor play. |
Isn't KQ strong enough to raise with pre-flop? (I usually min. raise with that), you may be more respected on the flop then.
Posted Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:55 am GMT by tame_deuces
I never see problem with investing 4 big blinds with KQs preflop. It's a hand with good potential, and it's not an esp. hard hand to get away from if we don't hit hard enough.
A slightly wide and funky preflop hand raising range (some PPs and SCs) is also good defence against postflop bluff as our hands get much less defined after the flop which can be a major advantage in tough games. As always with the caveat that our opponents actually pay attention, if not we should play hands mainly for value.
As for the hand as played...on the flop the pot is 4BBs and someone bets for 3 BBs, raising should be comfortable enough in such a small pot, I don't see a big point in flatcalling top pair on this board in a 4-way pot w/2 behind. It would be weird if noone had a piece of this and a lot of cards on the turn are going to make us doubt our hand.
As always, I don't play 1k NL. I answer these posts merely for fun, and my opinions may be very wrong for this game.
Posted Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:43 am GMT by Biowza
I'll take a stab.
I think that a raise on the flop would be a good idea but you need to choose a number that
- gives drawing hands incorrect odds to call
- will minimise loss when you are re-raised ( in which case you will most likely fold)
- define your hand
So i guess a smallish raise would be a good option in this situation.
The Turn card brought obvious problems as you said and I think that you made the correct move by betting 3/4 of the pot and also calling the raise.
With no reads, the river fold is also good in my opinion.
An interesting hand, but the problem i think lied in the call on the flop.
Posted Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:20 am GMT by TheSalche
i like raising pf here to try to draw out a UTG limp/re-raise
if we pair a fairly safe flop (like this one) we can lead out for a c-bet and then shut down if somebody shows strength
here you really need to figure out the hand on the flop, but i think it can be done cheaper with preflop actions
KQ isnt all that strong of a hand
Posted Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:33 am GMT by Jauron
How well do isolation raises tend to work at 1k? Is the mini raise on the turn really that consistant with a semi bluff with 2 guys to get through including one who bet the flop and the other who called it and bet the turn?
I've seen my share of semi bluffs out of position by check raising but it usually happens on the flop and it's usually a much bigger bet if they are OOP. Maybe they are more common at these stakes?
Posted Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:57 am GMT by shorn7
| Quote: | How well do isolation raises tend to work at 1k? Is the mini raise on the turn really that consistant with a semi bluff with 2 guys to get through including one who bet the flop and the other who called it and bet the turn?
I've seen my share of semi bluffs out of position by check raising but it usually happens on the flop and it's usually a much bigger bet if they are OOP. Maybe they are more common at these stakes? |
Generally it isn't consistent with a semi-bluff. But, this guy had been pretty aggressive and had made a few strange plays, so I was caught off guard by it. Normally, a player that does this at this limit will make a large check-raise to try and get it all-in now. And, it generally does not happen on the flop...the turn is where it does because by then the pot size is such that it would be difficult for the original bettor to get away.
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