Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:41 am GMT by aaronw
Say we are in a typical NL$100 6 max game. You are in MP with JTs and make a standard raise to $4. The SB calls the raise. SB is your standard player at this level (ie- no reads  ) You are heads up to the flop.
Flop ($9)- J 5 2 (rainbow)
SB checks and you make a standard continuation bet of $6. The SB check raises you to $20.
Here is the type of situation that I often find myself lost in. What do we do here? Is it too weak to just fold? Do we re-raise to see where we are and shut down if we are called? Call and re-evaluate on turn? Would the answer(s) be different here if he had AJ instead of JT?
Any help will be greatly appreciated. Much thanks in advance.
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Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:02 am GMT by tame_deuces
| aaronw wrote: |
Flop ($9)- J 5 2 (rainbow)
SB checks and you make a standard continuation bet of $6. The SB check raises you to $20.
|
Counting what you beat helps.
You beat:
J9,J8,J7,J6,J4,J3,TT,99,88,77,66,44,33, a semibluff and a bluff.
What has you beat is:
AJ,KJ,QJ,J5,J2,55,22,52 and slowplayed AA,KK,QQ,JJ
Now you add your opponent into the mix, alot of them wouldn't play the hands you beat or that has you beat against a raise, alot of them wouldn't C/R with any of those hands, so now you remove the instances you deem unlikely from the mix and count again, if you win more than your fair share it's easy pickings, if not we go on the next step.
When we analyze our opponent the easiest is to use the 'archetypes'. Superduper nit -> instafold. Loose aggro insane maniac -> don't fold, in between it gets hazy and more marginal but as long as one can weigh into one of those two categories it gets easier.
Outs to a potentially better hand have to be taken into account ofcourse, but the bigger the chance of being up against something very strong the more you should discount them.
Position makes it easier as you can call and see what happens on the turn vs unimaginative players.
My guess is that as one grows experienced situations like these are almost of secondary nature and not even worth much thought, for us others who don't play as much they cause a little more concern.
Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:57 am GMT by shorn7
This question cannot be answered (IMO, properly) without stack sizes.
Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:02 pm GMT by aaronw
| shorn7 wrote: | | This question cannot be answered (IMO, properly) without stack sizes. |
Once again, you are absolutely correct. Assume 100BB starting stacks.
Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:03 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| shorn7 wrote: | | This question cannot be answered (IMO, properly) without stack sizes. |
Stack sizes are typically standard as usual.
Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:45 pm GMT by shorn7
Check raise by an out of position player who just called a raise preflop on a non-drawy board is a pretty big power move. I would bet that we are beaten right now more than 50% of the time. However, what is really important is what this player knows about how we play and whether or not we would continuation bet this board with just overs.
We are getting $36/$14 odds to call the raise, so 2.5-1. There will be $76 left in each stack if we do call with $50 in the pot. So, the main question is how involved do we want to get with top pair/weak kicker in this spot? My inclination, given the stack sizes, would be not very much. And, by calling here, we are most likely going to face another big bet on the turn that would fully commit the rest of our chips to this hand. Legitimately, there are only 5 cards that can come that we really like and frankly none of them can make us assured of winning the hand and therefore allow us to play very profitably.
I think given the relative size of the stacks, our "no read" on this player, his power move on an uncoordinated board, and the apparent relative strength (or in this case lack thereof) of our hand, we should fold here. That being said, we should mark this player and watch them so that we develop a better understanding of what they do in these spots so that the next time we can make a more educated decision.
Without specific information, sometimes it is better to fold early and avoid more difficult, bigger, and potentially costly decisions that will come later.
Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:58 pm GMT by joejccva
| shorn7 wrote: | Check raise by an out of position player who just called a raise preflop on a non-drawy board is a pretty big power move. I would bet that we are beaten right now more than 50% of the time. However, what is really important is what this player knows about how we play and whether or not we would continuation bet this board with just overs.
We are getting $36/$14 odds to call the raise, so 2.5-1. There will be $76 left in each stack if we do call with $50 in the pot. So, the main question is how involved do we want to get with top pair/weak kicker in this spot? My inclination, given the stack sizes, would be not very much. And, by calling here, we are most likely going to face another big bet on the turn that would fully commit the rest of our chips to this hand. Legitimately, there are only 5 cards that can come that we really like and frankly none of them can make us assured of winning the hand and therefore allow us to play very profitably.
I think given the relative size of the stacks, our "no read" on this player, his power move on an uncoordinated board, and the apparent relative strength (or in this case lack thereof) of our hand, we should fold here. That being said, we should mark this player and watch them so that we develop a better understanding of what they do in these spots so that the next time we can make a more educated decision.
Without specific information, sometimes it is better to fold early and avoid more difficult, bigger, and potentially costly decisions that will come later. |
Spoken like a true prodigy. Very well said and I completely agree.
Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:21 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Didn't get the no reads thingy untill now, go me for reading a post well. Well, if no reads on the blinds in cashgame - Fold JTs in MP preflop.
Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:09 pm GMT by aaronw
| tame_deuces wrote: | | Didn't get the no reads thingy untill now, go me for reading a post well. Well, if no reads on the blinds in cashgame - Fold JTs in MP preflop. |
Really? What are your opening standards in MP then?
Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:31 pm GMT by tame_deuces
I have no clue, I have very few standards. Me not knowing = them not knowing (I hope, but it is probably not true).
But let me try to explain my chain of thought:
My basic idea is that a hand not worth defending is hand not worth playing...ie, if we're gonna fold AK like a little girl each time we flop top pair and face resistance from a table then we're probably just as well off by opening with 75o. I mean...if the basic idea is that we are hoping for no resistance in order to continue, then why on earth do we need a hand to start with? (and yes there is alot irony in here, but also alot of truth).
If you are going to be questioning yourself on the majority of flops where your opponents give you some resistance, don't play that hand. Wait untill you won't question it that much or change tables/stakes. Simple as that.
Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:31 pm GMT by snoogins47
| tame_deuces wrote: | | If you are going to be questioning yourself on the majority of flops where your opponents give you some resistance, don't play that hand. Wait untill you won't question it that much or change tables/stakes. Simple as that. |
I would support this, except I find that almost every hand is one where I quickly question the strength of my hand when I get some resistance. However, you said 'questioning yourself' and I couldn't quite tell what you meant, so I just twisted it to fit into my post. Just fyi.
I think that it's as usual impossible to answer, but, 'in general,' I'd have to vote fold... it's probably going to be the right decision more often than anything else in this spot.
The answer is drastically different with AJ. Your equity on this board against any sort of reasonable raising range skyrockets as your kicker goes up from T to A. Absolutely skyrockets. AJ is way way double triple quadruple GOOD KICKER A++++++++++++++++++++ better than JT on this board.
I think that there's another lesson in this thread, that's not quite as obvious as answers relating to the initial question. Think about what everybody is (fairly accurately) advising to the OP, and then try on the villain's shoes. It might be a bit of an eye opener to some.
Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:42 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| snoogins47 wrote: | | tame_deuces wrote: | | If you are going to be questioning yourself on the majority of flops where your opponents give you some resistance, don't play that hand. Wait untill you won't question it that much or change tables/stakes. Simple as that. |
I would support this, except I find that almost every hand is one where I quickly question the strength of my hand when I get some resistance. However, you said 'questioning yourself' and I couldn't quite tell what you meant, so I just twisted it to fit into my post. Just fyi.
. |
Questioning the hand isn't really an issue, I mean, if you quickly are going to figure out if your hand is good or not (with some degree of accuracy), that's good and makes it much more viable to play. We should always evaluate our holding. I guess I have some difficulties phrasing what I mean, but 'questioning yourself' would be what I mean yes, not the hand.
Posted Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:54 pm GMT by lwestatbus
| tame_deuces wrote: |
My basic idea is that a hand not worth defending is hand not worth playing...ie, if we're gonna fold AK like a little girl each time we flop top pair and face resistance from a table then we're probably just as well off by opening with 75o. I mean...if the basic idea is that we are hoping for no resistance in order to continue, then why on earth do we need a hand to start with? (and yes there is alot irony in here, but also alot of truth).
If you are going to be questioning yourself on the majority of flops where your opponents give you some resistance, don't play that hand. Wait untill you won't question it that much or change tables/stakes. Simple as that. |
This is GREAT advice and one of the first things I figured out (all on my own) when I started playing NL SnGs after a couple of years of playing limit. I think of it as answering the question, "What will I do with these cards if I get a significant raise behind me?"
Posted Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:15 am GMT by mortaleclipse
| shorn7 wrote: | Check raise by an out of position player who just called a raise preflop on a non-drawy board is a pretty big power move. I would bet that we are beaten right now more than 50% of the time. However, what is really important is what this player knows about how we play and whether or not we would continuation bet this board with just overs.
We are getting $36/$14 odds to call the raise, so 2.5-1. There will be $76 left in each stack if we do call with $50 in the pot. So, the main question is how involved do we want to get with top pair/weak kicker in this spot? My inclination, given the stack sizes, would be not very much. And, by calling here, we are most likely going to face another big bet on the turn that would fully commit the rest of our chips to this hand. Legitimately, there are only 5 cards that can come that we really like and frankly none of them can make us assured of winning the hand and therefore allow us to play very profitably.
I think given the relative size of the stacks, our "no read" on this player, his power move on an uncoordinated board, and the apparent relative strength (or in this case lack thereof) of our hand, we should fold here. That being said, we should mark this player and watch them so that we develop a better understanding of what they do in these spots so that the next time we can make a more educated decision.
Without specific information, sometimes it is better to fold early and avoid more difficult, bigger, and potentially costly decisions that will come later. |
This is the best advice so far imo. Fold here but watch the player. I have made these folds against players like this and relised shortly later the player is hyper aggresive and your hand is probably good. But without the reads its hard to say. Another great thing is calling the bet you need to be rewady to call another big bet on the turn. This is were things get weird for me. I tell myself, if I call here I more then likely will call the turn cause im preparing myself to commit to this hand.
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