Posted Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:35 am GMT by MrDarling
I'm starting to hate it.
Usually a cont bet on a missed un-scary flop will get you the pot or give you enough info if you are behind.
But lately I've encounter this :
I bet with AK in position. Flop is rags, something like 25T rainbow. and now early position bet hugh. usually the pot if not allin.
Problem 1 - in low levels people will call bet with almost any 2 cards (ie Kxo is usually good enough to call 4XBB bet)
Problem 2 - lots of this player will push allin with 2nd and even 3rd pair.
Problem 3 - (my site has tips from the pro's email) last one was from Gus suggesting betting from EP into the raiser on what looked like a missed flop.
My guess is the right move is laying down my hand. I'm not going to call allin with 2 over cards. What do I do if the bet is only half the pot?
Do I call with nothing hope to improve or try to take it on the turn? Do I reraise?
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Posted Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:24 am GMT by Ryan_j37
just toss overcards with no draw to a decent bet at you on a missed flop
Posted Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:14 am GMT by snoogins47
depends how hard you missed, how hard he likely missed, what kind of a player he is, and most importantly, stack sizes. There's a lot of shorter stack situations especially in tourneys (mostly just since there are more significantly short spots, and people generally have more experience playing short as well) where if you raise preflop with AK/AQ, the flop comes ragged and you fold to the flop donkbet push, you're basically lighting money on fire.
Normally though, with reasonable sized stacks and an opponent who you don't have reason to believe does this all the time, making the fold is probably for the best. There's a good segment of the population that only does this if they've paired up, or started with some random pocket pair and decides that it's time to go nuts because OMG I DONT WANT HIM TO CALL WITH AK AND TURN AN ACE I BETTER GET MY MONEY IN NOW.
On especially ragged boards, with reasonable stacks, peeling a card off is worth consideration. Against a decent amount of players, flat-calling on the flop ends with them basically telling you whether or not they have a hand on the turn, and you've got 6 reasonably good cards to see anyway.
Summary: Yeah, paragraph after paragraph basically saying "it depends." Standard Snoogins fare.
Posted Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:55 am GMT by shorn7
As with most things in the game, these decisions are very situational. Snoogings is pretty much dead on in that most of the time, it is best to just fold and wait for a better spot. But, you need to make sure that you become aware of the players who do this routinely and come over the top every once in a while. Calling doesn't make sense because you will have to improve to win and when you do improve, you won't get paid off by a worse hand in most cases.
Overcards unimproved are some of the toughest hands to play profitably in NLHE. And often, it is best to just fold and wait for a better opportunity to get your $$ in. We all need to remember that folding is also a weapon to use, one that protects the size of our stack so that it is bigger when the right situation does come along (and it always does).
Posted Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:07 am GMT by Dave B
I do think that this is an area where you need to mix up your game. If you always come out betting the flop, people are more likely to play into you or check raise. If you mix up the size and timing (sometimes on the flop, or check the flop and bet the turn, 1/2 pot to pot size bets) then I think that continuation bets are much more effective.
BTW-I hate moving all in post flop after missing w/ AK unless it is late and stacks dicate that move. You will only be called when you are beat and are risking way to much for a 10-20% increase to your stack.
I did make one call last night w/ AK after missing the flop because the situation made me believe I was ahead. 4-5 remain in a single table SNG and I have a med stack. Blinds were shorties and button was a big stack. I raised 4xBB w/ AK, button called and blinds folded. Pot was 1200 or so and I had 1200 left. Flop 554, I checked and button moved all in. I didnt see him pushing so hard w/ a pair so I called-feeling he was using his stack and position to call. He showed KQ.
Posted Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:02 pm GMT by MrDarling
what about in cash games?
Posted Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:38 pm GMT by weirdofreek
| MrDarling wrote: | | what about in cash games? |
Some people will hate this by why risk your stack in a marginal situation in a cash game. the blinds aren't going anywhere. I'm not saying wait for the nuts but wait for an eaiser decision.
Posted Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:11 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I feel guily for posting this, but I have to.
If you never continuation bet in a cash game, you're probably leaving a lot of money on the table.
If you automatically continuation bet in a cash game, you're probably giving some money away.
So the frequency of cont. betting should be somewhere between 0 and 1 (helpful, no?). I mean cont. betting with no pair or something like that.
Whether or not you cont. bet should depend on your image, who your opponent is, relative stack sizes, etc. It's far to broad a question for a blanket answer.
Posted Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:21 pm GMT by Det_Jimmy
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | I feel guily for posting this, but I have to.
If you never continuation bet in a cash game, you're probably leaving a lot of money on the table.
If you automatically continuation bet in a cash game, you're probably giving some money away.
So the frequency of cont. betting should be somewhere between 0 and 1 (helpful, no?). I mean cont. betting with no pair or something like that.
Whether or not you cont. bet should depend on your image, who your opponent is, relative stack sizes, etc. It's far to broad a question for a blanket answer. |
I agree totally(although I usually only profitable at low limit SNG's).+ Always try to keep a continuation bet around half the pot,and only do it against one(maybe two,if they're weak tight players).If you do it against two,try to lean towards 3/4 pot.I'm not a pro,but I do make a small profit.So good luck,and if I'm not right,feel free to correct me,because I hate to leave money on the table.
Posted Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:07 am GMT by khaosanroad
If I have AQ and the flop has a K or J I will most likely cont bet if I'm first to act or it is checked to me.
If there are no high cards I will probably check if I'm first to act unless i'm up against a nit.
Posted Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:56 am GMT by aaronw
| khaosanroad wrote: | If I have AQ and the flop has a K or J I will most likely cont bet if I'm first to act or it is checked to me.
If there are no high cards I will probably check if I'm first to act unless i'm up against a nit. |
Not going to atleast try and represent an overpair in this situation?
Edit- Also, if your opponent just has some overcards (like you do) he will probably fold to a bet anyway.
Posted Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:52 am GMT by khaosanroad
| aaronw wrote: | | khaosanroad wrote: | If I have AQ and the flop has a K or J I will most likely cont bet if I'm first to act or it is checked to me.
If there are no high cards I will probably check if I'm first to act unless i'm up against a nit. |
Not going to atleast try and represent an overpair in this situation? |
If I'm against a nit yes. If I'm against a calling station no. If the board is totally uncoordinated I probably will. Generally a lot of players get into trouble trying to cont bet against a loose player chasing that flush or open ender.
overall I probably cont bet 80% of the time if I miss the flop, but I almost always have position.
| aaronw wrote: | | Edit- Also, if your opponent just has some overcards (like you do) he will probably fold to a bet anyway. |
the smart ones at least, but they are in the minority.
Posted Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:34 am GMT by tame_deuces
_Alot_ of people tend to put you on AK, always remember that. It's the archetypical hand to raise with or something. 
Posted Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:36 am GMT by aaronw
| tame_deuces wrote: | | _Alot_ of people tend to put you on AK, always remember that. It's the archetypical hand to raise with or something. |
Yeah, that annoys me sometimes that whenever you raise you automatically have AK in people's eyes. Another annoying thing is that every time you raise on the button you are stealing. So when you have a good hand on the button you don't know whether they are raising you because they have a good hand or because they just think you are trying to steal the blinds.
Posted Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:53 am GMT by supafrey
why would these things annoy you.
and not many people are answering the op's q.
Posted Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:03 am GMT by aaronw
| supafrey wrote: | why would these things annoy you.
and not many people are answering the op's q. |
They just do. (Well maybe not the AK scenario, but the fact that everyone thinks you are stealing everytime you raise on the button definately does annoy me.) They think you are stealing just because you have the button and for no other reason whatsoever.
Posted Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:11 am GMT by supafrey
why would you ever be upset if you know exactly what your opp is probably thinking
Posted Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:42 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| supafrey wrote: | | why would you ever be upset if you know exactly what your opp is probably thinking |
Because they have dirty minds. I'm not a piece of meat, ya know.
Posted Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:01 am GMT by snoogins47
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | I'm not a piece of meat, ya know. |
I can name at least four people off the top of my head that would disagree with this statement.
Posted Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:29 am GMT by shorn7
I think heads up, a continuation bet needs to be made almost 100% of the time. This way, you give cover to your overpair hands when you do have them. However, you need to be willing and able to re-raise on the flop sometimes when you have AK and someone check raises you on a ragged board. Otherwise, good players will just test you with those raises and long term your continuation bet will be -EV.
Multi-way, it becomes more difficult and I think mixing up the play is better.
Posted Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:29 am GMT by aaronw
| supafrey wrote: | | why would you ever be upset if you know exactly what your opp is probably thinking |
Because you don't know if they are thinking you are stealing and just going to take the pot from you or if they have an actual hand.
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