Flopping Bottom Two from the SB |
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Posted Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:24 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Ok, I've run into this situation a few times recently, and I'm looking for opinions.
Illustration: Hero is in the SB with 64. 4 people have limped in, giving us 11-to-1 on a call. Hero calls, BB checks. 6 BB's in the pot.
Flop comes 10-6-4. Under what cirumstances do you check? Under which do you bet? If you bet, how much and why?
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Posted Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:31 am GMT by aaronw
I assume this is a rainbow flop as well as standard 100BB stacks? I generally bet out here (probably about the pot size) and get some money in the pot. Bottom two pair is a very vulnerable hand. You want to get some money in the middle while knocking out a few players. You want to protect your hand because a lot of cards can come that counterfeit your hand. For example if a T comes on the turn, you pretty much have to fold to any heavy betting.
Cliff's notes- bet out and protect your hand.
Posted Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:57 am GMT by supafrey
c/r because i'm tricky.
Posted Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:02 pm GMT by shorn7
I think it depends on your stack size and what you know about players in the hand. With a small stack, I am probably looking to get it all in on the flop and so I would lead and hope to be raised. With a big stack, I might go supa's route and hope for a check-raise.
With a medium stack (100 BB's), this is a tough spot. More often than not though, I think leading is the best play simply because there are a lot of turn cards that can come thatr you don't like for a limped pot (or that at least won't allow you to play your hand that profitably). In fact, in the specific hand, I can't think of one turn card (other than a 6 or 4 of course) that you can say "OK, I am still ahead here and can commit."
So, I think in most cases it is best to end the hand now if you can and unless you have very aggressive players in the hand (which you probably don't since it was 4 limpers), leading and hoping to get raise is the best way to do that.
Posted Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:14 pm GMT by tame_deuces
With bottom two it's always the question of HOW you wan't to get the money in.
What kind of hands are going to pour alot of money into a small limped pot that bottom two pair actually beats?
In raised pots we can often add big pairs and TPTK to the mix, but in unraised pots that is not so often the case, so you're basically hoping that somebody will go wild with a bluff/semi-bluff/single pair hand...far from everyone do that.
Now, I know I'm one for preaching about being tough and stop whining and get in there and get money into the pot, but bottom two is a ridiculously board/situation dependant hand, sometimes next to worthless...sometimes a prime moneymaking situation.
Posted Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:22 pm GMT by Skribbles
I prefer a lead here.
C/R is going to make a sensible villian fold any hand you beat (draws not included) giving you a minimum amount of profit (close to pot). Leading out may entice a raise from a player who hit top pair, overpair etc... thus giving you a bigger pot to take down with a re-raise.
Only problem I find with leading is that is you get multiple callers you pretty much have to check the turn or be prepared to put all your chips in. As Shorn said, not many turn cards are going to look good for us.
Posted Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:55 pm GMT by Felting
| supafrey wrote: | | c/r because i'm tricky. |
I too have fallen for the charms of the c/r.
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:00 am GMT by MrSifter
it's an all-in for me... try to get some folders
because anything higher than the nine on the turn would have you worried
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:55 am GMT by tame_deuces
| MrSifter wrote: | it's an all-in for me... try to get some folders
because anything higher than the nine on the turn would have you worried |
Bad.
Pushing bottom two in a 4BB pot is very bad.
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:58 am GMT by MrSifter
| tame_deuces wrote: | | MrSifter wrote: | it's an all-in for me... try to get some folders
because anything higher than the nine on the turn would have you worried |
Bad.
Pushing bottom two in a 4BB pot is very bad. |
why so?
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:12 am GMT by tame_deuces
| MrSifter wrote: | | tame_deuces wrote: | | MrSifter wrote: | it's an all-in for me... try to get some folders
because anything higher than the nine on the turn would have you worried |
Bad.
Pushing bottom two in a 4BB pot is very bad. |
why so? |
Think of what will fold and what will call. You'll only get called when crushed and people will fold all hands you could get value from.
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:17 am GMT by MrSifter
| tame_deuces wrote: | | MrSifter wrote: | | tame_deuces wrote: | | MrSifter wrote: | it's an all-in for me... try to get some folders
because anything higher than the nine on the turn would have you worried |
Bad.
Pushing bottom two in a 4BB pot is very bad. |
why so? |
Think of what will fold and what will call. You'll only get called when crushed and people will fold all hands you could get value from. |
well i'd expect anything except a TT, T8 and big pocket pairs to fold
if there's been no betting, it's unlikely anyone has TT or higher
so i'd try to take the pot down to prevent putting chips in and getting stung byt the turn and river cards
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:55 am GMT by supafrey
okay i'm starting to suspect that mr sifter is a fake acct or someone trying to pull a joke...
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:24 am GMT by MrSifter
??
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:30 am GMT by MrSifter
ok, i'll come clean
i've a mate who swears by this tactic of going super-aggressive when he thinks he has the best hand, taking loads of blinds and small pots and generally pissing people off
he never takes a penny off me because he's just so easy to read, but he seems to do very well in tournament games, albeit against weak-ish players
just wanted to see what response it'd get on a board like this with some decent players on it 
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:49 pm GMT by daycri
I like check/push here.
TT, 66, 44, these are the only rational hands that have us killed. And you need the case for the bottom two sets here. T6, T4.... eh, who even limps with that crap.
Wait for a raise, hope for maybe one call. Put them on tens or the draw, and push and take the chips! Let's not see another card unless they pay for it.
And if they do, and they have say, AT.... just know that the board is gonna come a running pair to conterfeit you. So hope to take this down here, because we are only a heavy favorite right now this will only go downhill from here.
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:02 pm GMT by aaronw
| MrSifter wrote: | | tame_deuces wrote: | | MrSifter wrote: | | tame_deuces wrote: | | MrSifter wrote: | it's an all-in for me... try to get some folders
because anything higher than the nine on the turn would have you worried |
Bad.
Pushing bottom two in a 4BB pot is very bad. |
why so? |
Think of what will fold and what will call. You'll only get called when crushed and people will fold all hands you could get value from. |
well i'd expect anything except a TT, T8 and big pocket pairs to fold
if there's been no betting, it's unlikely anyone has TT or higher
so i'd try to take the pot down to prevent putting chips in and getting stung byt the turn and river cards |
Its very bad to over bet the pot by that much. You do not need to risk 100bb to get 4 or 5 bbs. This is a hand that you want to get value from, but not give people free cards. If you go all in, no worse hand is going to call and all better hands will call. Anyone who flopped a set or higher two pair will call. And anyone who flopped just one pair or a draw will fold when they would have likely called atleast one bet on the flop.
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 2:53 pm GMT by daycri
Thats why we check/push, cause we can get the additional bet they may be made into this pot by a draw or top pair. We're not trying to double up, we just want to get this hand over with on the flop. bottom two on that board is gonna be good, at least nine times out of ten, but no matter what the turn card is (cept a 6 or 4) its gonna make this significantly worse. Hope for a bet, Push, and win the profit, and in the rare case somebody calls with a set that holds the case 6 or case 4, know that your odds were a whole lot better they ddint have that and would give you the pot. You are more likely gonna get a call by someone mistepping with AT or something. In fact, if someone had a set on that unintimidating of a board, wouldn't they check and slow play anyways? I think if you check, and you get a pot sized raise in front of you, and possibly a call, Push this badboy and take those chips...Or at least massively overbet..This hand is only good now
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:03 pm GMT by aaronw
| daycri wrote: | | Thats why we check/push, cause we can get the additional bet they may be made into this pot by a draw or top pair. We're not trying to double up, we just want to get this hand over with on the flop. bottom two on that board is gonna be good, at least nine times out of ten, but no matter what the turn card is (cept a 6 or 4) its gonna make this significantly worse. Hope for a bet, Push, and win the profit, and in the rare case somebody calls with a set that holds the case 6 or case 4, know that your odds were a whole lot better they ddint have that and would give you the pot. You are more likely gonna get a call by someone mistepping with AT or something. In fact, if someone had a set on that unintimidating of a board, wouldn't they check and slow play anyways? I think if you check, and you get a pot sized raise in front of you, and possibly a call, Push this badboy and take those chips...Or at least massively overbet..This hand is only good now |
This isn't a tournament where you only have like 30-40bbs. This is a cash game and we have 100bbs. I think that is a horrendous overbet on the flop. Just think about that. There is 4 BBs in the pot. You check and someone bets 4BBs. Are you saying that we should really push for ~ 90BBs more after that. That is such a horrible overbet that will only get called by a better hand. Nobody is going to call that with any sort of draw. It is even unlikely that a naked Ten calls us in this position.
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 5:52 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Um, guys.... bottom two isn't that great a hand...
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:30 pm GMT by aaronw
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | Um, guys.... bottom two isn't that great a hand... |
That is true, but you don't to open push for like 40 times the pot size either. It is a hand where you want to thin the field and get some value out of it.
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 8:35 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| aaronw wrote: | | xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | Um, guys.... bottom two isn't that great a hand... |
That is true, but you don't to open push for like 40 times the pot size either. It is a hand where you want to thin the field and get some value out of it. |
That was exactly my point. I'm not sure why people are advocating pushing. Pushing and hoping for a laydown is NOT a good strategy in cash games.
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:06 pm GMT by aaronw
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | aaronw wrote: | | xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | Um, guys.... bottom two isn't that great a hand... |
That is true, but you don't to open push for like 40 times the pot size either. It is a hand where you want to thin the field and get some value out of it. |
That was exactly my point. I'm not sure why people are advocating pushing. Pushing and hoping for a laydown is NOT a good strategy in cash games. |
Oh ok! Sorry. My bad. I guess I just can't read very well. Haha!
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:12 pm GMT by TheSalche
bottom two isnt usually a great hand, but this is a very non-drawy board which should lead us to believe that we've got the best hand here and we want to get some chips (not all) into the pot and take a look at the turn before committing all the way
Posted Thu Dec 07, 2006 11:47 pm GMT by shorn7
he seems to do very well in tournament games | Quote: |
This is a totally different scenario. In cash games, all you will be doing here is lowering your hourly expectation with this play by losing profit in some cases and getting stacked in others. Both, very very bad. |
Posted Fri Dec 08, 2006 4:09 pm GMT by VisualCSharp
I don't think a check/push is the right move here. Bottom two pair should be viewed as only slightly better than TPTK. On a flop of T64, think of it as |A+1|T. Even though Hero is about 75% to win against TPTK, possible turn cards will make aggressive bets from Hero in the SB much more difficult to make. It's different from other 75% scenarios where you know there are not many cards that can improve Villain's likely holdings. Here are a couple of scenarios:
Hero checks.
Villain makes 3/4 or pot-sized bet.
Hero re-raises all-in.
It's safe to assume he's got AT, possibly KT and figured Hero missed the entire flop, limping from the SB. As has been stated before the only times you're going to get a call for all your chips is if Villain flopped a set. I think T6 would call here as well figuring the all-in move is too hyper-aggressive to be a check/raised set from Hero (assuming deep stacks). I know if I held T6 in this position it would be an instant call without an extremely obvious "I've got the set" tell. A much better play from Hero here is a big raise to find out if Villain was stealing (didn't he limp too?) or truly has the nuts.
Hero checks.
Villain checks.
Almost any card that comes on the turn will make it much harder to push bottom two pair hard. The only cards that are not scary are the four remaining sixes and fours. Villain could easily be checking top pair weak kicker, something like T|8-9|, and could easily improve to at least some sort of draw, or possibly a higher two pair, on the turn. Hero won't know for sure but the doubt alone will probably prevent a bet or call from Hero on the turn.
Hero makes 3/4 or pot-sized bet.
Villain calls.
In my opinion this is the best situation that doesn't have Villain folding. A lot of weaker players will undoubtedly call with holdings such as |A-J|T. In this case putting Villain on a hand is a bit easier, as you can figure his kicker is probably higher than T. If a A-J hits on the turn Hero should be able to fold to an aggressive raise from Villain on the turn.
Hero makes 3/4 or pot-sized bet.
Villain re-raises.
Should be an easy fold. Villain is stating he at least beats AT with his re-raise, meaning he most likely has 64 beat on either a higher two-pair or a set.
Posted Fri Dec 08, 2006 5:09 pm GMT by VisualCSharp
I'd like to add something else. These sorts of situations are why I normally fold in the small blind with anything but premium hands, even if everyone else at the table calls and the big blind will check. You don't want to be caught in this sort of situation. Even worse than T64 would be something like A64. All sorts of draws, top pairs and possible A6 or A4 means you're losing a lot of chips. It is tempting to call the blind to hit a miracle 235 flop but what are the chances of that happening, and you getting paid off?
Posted Fri Dec 08, 2006 8:56 pm GMT by Biowza
| VisualCSharp wrote: | | I'd like to add something else. These sorts of situations are why I normally fold in the small blind with anything but premium hands, even if everyone else at the table calls and the big blind will check. You don't want to be caught in this sort of situation. Even worse than T64 would be something like A64. All sorts of draws, top pairs and possible A6 or A4 means you're losing a lot of chips. It is tempting to call the blind to hit a miracle 235 flop but what are the chances of that happening, and you getting paid off? |
folding a hand like 64 or 75 with other limpers in the pot from the small blind is VERY bad imho. You can't seriously only play premium hands from the small blind because at a MINIMUM you are getting 3:1 odds (someone check the math  ) and unless you are positive that the big blind holds a monster, you cant really expect to fold. Small blind is a great spot to take advantage of excellent pot odds to get a big payoff.
Posted Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:40 pm GMT by VisualCSharp
I agree with you on the pot odds comment. However, I agree with Phil Gordon when he says in The Little Green Book that he expects to lose money over the long run from the blinds. Acting first has you in a bad position to begin with, especially limping in. I guess whether the table is playing tight or loose has something to do with it as well, as you can pretty much guarantee someone is limping with a hand that beats 64.
I'll refine my "premium hands" comment a bit.  I would normally play middle-suited connectors and all pocket pairs from the small blind in an unraised pot. I would fold with 64 however and save my small blind for the next rotation.
Posted Fri Dec 08, 2006 11:22 pm GMT by Jauron
I'd likely lead out most of the time on this type of flop with this many players in the pot. We have a decent hand, and horrible position. I want the first few players to have to make calls knowing there is a lot of possible action behind them and start to define my own hand. This board is not too draw heavy, so I can start to get an idea of what I may be facing based on the action behind me.
This is one of those times we're likely way ahead or way behind. I don't like check raising in those spots in big multi way pots.
Posted Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:15 am GMT by MrDarling
last night I completed from the SB with 42o (short hand table)
flop came 4x2 - checked around (this table folds to any bet if missed)
turn 4 - checked around.
river 4.
I try an overbet - maybe someone with an A call.
No.
nice $0.3 profit from quads
Posted Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:32 pm GMT by suitedaces84
To everyone who likes pushing to protect your hand:
Would you go all-in on this flop as a bluff?
Posted Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:01 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
| suitedaces84 wrote: | To everyone who likes pushing to protect your hand:
Would you go all-in on this flop as a bluff? |
Would any of your opponents know this?
Posted Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:17 pm GMT by Muck
I think I'd risk a check raise here if one of my opponents is very aggressive but on most rag flops with few plays there's a high chance it might be checked around, so most of the time I'd bet it.
From everyone elses point of view:
- Your the SB (or BB) so you got this hand for cheap.
- The flop is all rags.
- Your in an early position but you've shown strength.
So 2 pair looks like a very likely hand.
Posted Sat Dec 09, 2006 3:34 pm GMT by suitedaces84
The point I was trying to make is that when you go all-in when you'll only be called by better hands you're bluffing (or in some cases semi-bluffing). This is true even if your hand is probably best.
Making a large bet to steal a small pot is typically a bad idea. In spots like this where you have no clue what anyone else has it's really bad.
A bluff makes even less sense when you consider that you can probably win the pot without stealing it.
You could make a case that you'll be called by a worse hand more often than a better one. And this could be true in a micro game. Even if it is true it does not justify the play. | Jefecaminador wrote: | | suitedaces84 wrote: | To everyone who likes pushing to protect your hand:
Would you go all-in on this flop as a bluff? |
Would any of your opponents know this? |
The fact that some of your opponents think you wouldn't make a bluff like tihs makes this bet even worse. (Which is what I think you were getting at.)
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