A rule question and a more general question... |
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Posted Sat Apr 17, 2004 2:06 am GMT by Contemplating Quitting
1. CHEATING QUESTION: In a small NLH tourney (8-10 players), is it cheating if one of the players is showing his cards and getting advice from a spectator who has already been eliminated from the tournament? This is a weekly college game w/a ten to twenty dollar buy-in, winner take all except second place man's entry fee. Last week I was in the final three and the guy to my right was thinking long and hard about calling one of my large preflop raises w/a low pair. The potential caller was letting his eliminated buddy look at his cards, and the peeker was openly rooting for his pal (I don't mind either of these things in and of themselves). But the peeker was absolutely obnoxious. Sitting at the table is fine, and I really don't mind the hooting and hollering when his pal takes down a big pot, but what pissed me off is this: The eliminated peeker was encouraging the live player to act one way or another on many hands. In particular, the hand I mentioned above. The player wasn't at all sure what to do with his low pair against my large preflop raise (he took about two minutes to finally decide) and his eliminated buddy was begging and pleading with him to call, arguing that I was just trying to steal the blinds. I was actually sitting on A-J suited, but ended up losing the hand when I was forced to muck my hand after I missed the flop badly (rag rainbow undercards) and the other player raised my $100 post-flop semibluff all-in. At this point in the tournament, the blinds were at $80/$160, so this was a substantial dent in my chiplead ($360). If this is bad ettiqutte or breaking the rules, how so? Is it ever ok to let a spectator see your cards? Is it ever ok to ask a spectator what he or she would do? Is it ever ok for a spectator to give advice?
2. EXPERIENCE QUESTION: I learned how to play Texas Hold-em about the time that Rounders came out (six or seven years ago), and I'm wondering how much relative table time I have under my belt and what type of progress I should expect with the amount of poker that I have played. I've never played Hold-em in a casino or online (all of my experience comes from home games). When my roommates and I first learned how to play, the three of us would play little $10 buy-in, .25/.50 NLH tourneys at the house. I've probably played in a couple hundred games like that over the last six or seven years, with different roommates and buddies of mine. Until January of this year, I had only played in twenty or so Hold-em games with more than two or three players. I've watched a lot on TV, and I finally found a regular local home game this semester (8-11 players a week at one big table). We started out playing .50/$1, with a 3 dollar max bet on each betting round. We played that ten or twenty times, and then we started playing NL tourneys. We now play 2 or 3 ten to twenty dollar buy-in tourneys one night a week, and I've probably attended about twenty poker nights with that type structure (sixty or so tourneys). I've also played in one large $25 buy-in tourney with about 25 players.
I'm not doing all that well. I've won a few tourneys, placed in a few more, and finish close to the money with regularity, but sometimes still make the early exit, and rarely come home a winner. I'm wondering whether the table experience I have is considered low, average, above average, or what. The only book I've read is Helmuth's piece of crap (not very instructive on the NLH, which is what I'm interested in). I think my experience can still be considered low since I really haven't done a lot of educated playing (I'm just now starting to keep track of my winnings/losses I'm definitely down, just now starting to read and incorporate new things into my game, just now starting to play consistently preflop, etc.). What do you think I need to do to get better? Keep reading and slowly try to incorporate what I've learned into my game? At what point should a player expect relatively consistent wins to start rolling in, or perhaps more importantly, when should I start expecting to at least start breaking even over given stretches of play? Win or lose, I enjoy poker enough to know it's gonna be a lifetime form of entertainment for me. But I'm asking because I want to know whether there's a point at which you just accept the fact that you're not picking up the game very well and you're not going to win consistently. I know it takes tons of time and practice to be good, but I have other friends that don't play as much or read as much who are winning more consistently, and I'm wondering whether I just need to give up on any aspirations of this becoming a form of income, and instead just accept it as good fun and fellowship, with the occasional win.
Thanks in advance to anyone who had the patience to wade through this long-winded post.
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Posted Sat Apr 17, 2004 3:20 pm GMT by Nighttrain
outside play....NO,NO,NO!Lucky it was not me,only players at table may play hand,Period end of story.They were way out of line.Let them know immediatly that if there out there out...... 
Posted Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:57 pm GMT by Nate PT
I think letting other eliminated people or even people who mucked their hands is up to the rules that you guys made. Me and my friends do home games a lot and we will usually allow that with the people who are just starting out to help them learn how to play. During a tourney we may allow it but if the person in the hand says something about it usually it will stop out of respect for the people left in the hand. Its pretty much up to you to say something about it and up to the discretion of everyone else or the person hosting the tourney.
Posted Sat Apr 17, 2004 5:12 pm GMT by Contemplating Quitting
Juding by the responses so far, it seems like it's up to the guy who is annoyed (me) to say something about it. The problem is this: If it's not clearly against rules or ettiquette, I don't want to whine about it. At the time, I wasn't sure, so I just kept quiet (if I complained, I'd clearly be giving away some info and practically inviting him to call the preflop hand).
Although I had a good hand (A-J suited preflop), I was hoping he'd fold once he started thinking about it, because I knew he had something to play with, whether it be a couple of face cards or a pair underneath--besides, the blinds at this point were substantial. I stood to win $160 if he mucked before the flop.
I don't really mind the eliminated guy sitting at the table, and I really don't care if a live player shows him his hand. I think it's borderline when a live player asks a dead player "what would you do" though, for several reasons. First of all, in this particular game, the live player had never played against me before, and the dead player had played with me a ton. Thus, the live player gets the advantage of any accurate reads the dead player might have on me by virtue of his experience playing against me. And when it got to the point where the obnoxious bastard was begging him to call (this was unsolicited advice, by the way), I was getting really ticked off. To be more specific: the live player had shown the dead player his low pair under while pondering the call and the dead player was like "dude, you've gotta call, you're getting shortstacked, you've got a good hand, and he's just trying to steal the blinds with his raise. I don't think he has anything, I think he's just trying to lean on you." His read was inaccurate, as I had a very good preflop hand for a shorthanded game, but still--I'd have been happy winning the hand before the flop, and after having to muck the hand (and $360 worth of chips) after the flop, I'm forced to wonder whether the guy would have folded w/o the dead guy's advice.
Not really sure how to handle the situation.
Posted Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:19 pm GMT by ballbp
Alright, I've been watching this since it posted so I'll speak up now. The guy giving his two cents should shut up. It shouldn't be up to you to say it. It should be a rule. Anyone not in a hand shouldn't be able to see anyone's cards. More to the point, anyone out of the game should except the fact that they got their ass knocked out for a reason. Most places have a "show one show all" rule anyway. I understand Nate's situation about new players but still....set up a "loser's table" as we call it and let him go work his skills at that table. You're not in the wrong here.
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