Kick in the ass for my first attempt at $1/$2 |
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Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:13 pm GMT by swiftone
PokerStars Game #7456895287: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2006/12/15 - 18:10:08 (ET)
Table 'Parthenope V' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: jared_jon ($198 in chips)
Seat 2: zestygreek ($137.70 in chips)
Seat 3: caniraise919 ($79.40 in chips)
Seat 4: lobo54 ($204.15 in chips)
Seat 5: cronanan ($118 in chips)
Seat 6: Nightanday ($188 in chips)
Seat 7: alv69 ($244.40 in chips)
Seat 8: TBuck19 ($185.10 in chips)
Seat 9: Nitewin ($174 in chips)
jared_jon: posts small blind $1
zestygreek: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to zestygreek  
caniraise919: raises $2 to $4
lobo54: folds
cronanan: calls $4
Nightanday: folds
alv69: calls $4
TBuck19: folds
Nitewin: folds
jared_jon: calls $3
zestygreek: calls $2
*** FLOP ***   
jared_jon: checks
zestygreek: bets $10
caniraise919: folds
cronanan: folds
caniraise919 leaves the table
alv69: folds
jared_jon: calls $10
*** TURN *** 
jared_jon: checks
zestygreek: bets $20
jared_jon: calls $20
*** RIVER *** 
jared_jon: checks
zestygreek: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jared_jon: shows   (a full house, Tens full of Kings)
zestygreek: shows (a straight, Nine to King)
jared_jon collected $77 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $80 | Rake $3
Board
Seat 1: jared_jon (small blind) showed and won ($77) with a full house, Tens full of Kings
Seat 2: zestygreek (big blind) showed and lost with a straight, Nine to King
Seat 3: caniraise919 folded on the Flop
Seat 4: lobo54 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: cronanan folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Nightanday folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: alv69 folded on the Flop
Seat 8: TBuck19 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Nitewin (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
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Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:20 pm GMT by aaronw
Bet more on the flop. This board is very likely to have hit some people. There are also 4 other people in the pot so it is very likely that it hit someone. It consists of all high cards and flush and straight possibilities. I probably bet somewhere between 3/4 and full pot. (between $15 and $20). I would also bet more on the turn here. There are 2 others in the pot.
Edit- I am not sure how I feel about the check behind on the river yet...
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:27 pm GMT by MrDarling
**** **** *****
***** **** ******* **** *****
* *** ****
edited out due to the stupidity
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:30 pm GMT by aaronw
| MrDarling wrote: | I think you played fine.
Dude hit 1 of 4 outers and I don't think he would have folded to any bet. (we talked about not folding a set, didn't we) |
I think he had more than 4 outs... unless I am missing something...
According to my calculations he has 10 outs
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:40 pm GMT by exit music
1 ten
3 nines
3 kings
3 sixes
You didn't play this wrong, this is a cooler. I can't believe he didn't bet on the river with tens-full... good thing your opponent is dumb because he probably could have sqeezed at least 25-30$ off you on the river.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 6:54 pm GMT by aaronw
| exit music wrote: | 1 ten
3 nines
3 kings
3 sixes
You didn't play this wrong, this is a cooler. I can't believe he didn't bet on the river with tens-full... good thing your opponent is dumb because he probably could have sqeezed at least 25-30$ off you on the river. |
I don't know if the opponent was dumb, he was probably doing for a river check raise. OP has shown continued to bet the whole way and the villain expects him to continue to bet on the river.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:56 pm GMT by shorn7
Must bet more on the turn. In fact, overbet the turn here. His call on the flop indicates a good made hand or strong draw. Let him make a big mistake by calling a larger bet on the turn.
I am not sure about the river check. It was either an incredible read (since he played his set like a wuss), or "monster's under the bed" syndrome (more likely). Personally, I lose a lot more on this hand with a bigger turn bet and a river bet too.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:10 pm GMT by swiftone
Thanks for your input guys. I checked the river because I truly did beleive the K gave him a boat. For some reason the way he called me down made me think trips and the K put the pheer into me.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:13 pm GMT by Moon_Child
i the river was a scare card for sure, only a good player can get away from it... but either way, you played it fine, you had the nuts on the flop and i dont think he would of folded his set of T's even if u tried to push him out of the pot. he would of called to close his boat.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:26 pm GMT by supafrey
That analysis of this hand has been so bad so far it's awesome.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:34 pm GMT by aaronw
| supafrey wrote: | | That analysis of this hand has been so bad so far it's awesome. |
If its so bad so far, why don't you chime in and give us your God-like advice?
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:44 pm GMT by supafrey
first lets play a where's waldo of advice that has been given without offering any motivation/basis for the play. lets attack and correct these, shall we?
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:45 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
My only question is, why would you not go broke on this hand? Seriously, checking the river is really bad in almost every case... and the cases it isn't, there is little way to know, and you're much better off trying to get all the money in when you flop the nut straight. A good player does not "get away from" this hand--he probably gets all his chips in with it, and the vast majority of the time, he wins. It is impossible to put a player on exactly a full house given the action any significant proportion of the time.
I would prefer the betting to be much stronger on the flop and turn... with a flop like that, it's almost impossible it didn't hit someone somehow.
Before anyone goes talking about how great the check behind on the river was, I remind you not to let results influence your thinking, and I'd like you to think about how horrible that check would be if our opponent held AK, KQ, or KJ instead of a full house.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:53 pm GMT by TheSalche
half-pot bet
half-pot bet
check behind
nittiest way to play flopped nuts, with a flush draw on board
bet more and get your money in with the best hand, at this level nobody is folding 2 pair or better, you may even get AK, KQ, KJ around
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:54 pm GMT by aaronw
| supafrey wrote: | | first lets play a where's waldo of advice that has been given without offering any motivation/basis for the play. lets attack and correct these, shall we? |
Well, how do you think he should have played the hand? You keep saying you are a great player and a great coach. But you cannot even relate your thoughts on a hand like this. Why not just give us some of your thoughts? If you are unable to do that, what makes you think that that you would be a good coach?
***Disclaimer- sorry, I am a bit tired, but I just don't understand why its so hard for you just to give your thoughts on a hand.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:55 pm GMT by supafrey
so a good coach is someone that gives people the right answers whenever they have the wrong ones?
the right answers help pretty much noone.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:57 pm GMT by aaronw
| supafrey wrote: | | so a good coach is someone that gives people the right answers whenever they have the wrong ones? |
no, a good coach is a person who is able to atleast be able to relate their thoughts on hands. You keep saying everyone is wrong about their analysis of the hand and you still fail to give your advice/thoughts.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:59 pm GMT by supafrey
i don't always fail to give my advice.
Me saying there's something wrong atleast lets ppl know to reexamine each street and follow a simple "okay what am I trying to accomplish on this street, and what action best accomplishes that" instead of just answering what obviously just popped in their head first.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:01 pm GMT by aaronw
| supafrey wrote: | | i don't always fail to give my advice. |
That is correct, sir. However, you keep failing to in this instance. If you think everyone is wrong, atleast backup your claims, say whats on your mind and give your advice. I know your are very capable of giving great advice, so I don't know what the problem is.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:02 pm GMT by supafrey
If I give people answers, they will learn the application, not the reasoning behind it.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:05 pm GMT by aaronw
| supafrey wrote: | | If I give people answers, they will learn the application, not the reasoning behind it. |
So give your answers along with your reasoning behind it. Its not that hard. That is why not all of the posts here are just polls. That is because we want an answer to go along with the reasoning to it, not just the answer. If someone comes here with a question, they are obviously trying to get better. Just telling them that they are wrong is not helping them. They are looking for advice and trying to get better.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:11 pm GMT by supafrey
I feel like i've had this discussion like 10 times on here. I owe nothing, so lets remember that right away, ofcourse, but I assure you I do my best to try to help the OP and the "right answers" get out. Sometimes I think this is the best way.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:17 pm GMT by TheSalche
supa is just trying to point out that "good posts" don't just say "do X", more explanation is needed for the advice to be good, because this is only one instance over tens / hundreds thousands hands one will play in NLHE (or any game).
this exact situation may not come up again for a long time, so what we need to learn/discuss is a bit more general than "how do i play the flopped nuts"
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:19 pm GMT by aaronw
| supafrey wrote: | | I feel like i've had this discussion like 10 times on here. I owe nothing, so lets remember that right away, ofcourse, but I assure you I do my best to try to help the OP and the "right answers" get out. Sometimes I think this is the best way. |
You think the best way is to say nothing? Or am I missing something? And of course you are right that you owe nothing, but I would think that you would atleast want to help a little bit.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:19 pm GMT by supafrey
the vast majority of posts on thp seem to be people answering what they think they're supposed to say, rather than what ppl literally believe/would do. People also even constantly write things like "i know you're supposed to do this, but i would probably..."
People need to start thinking WHY they're doing what they're doing.
Telling someone that is just ctrl + v'ing what they hear on espn the "right play" doesn't help them. What are they gonna do? Repeat what I said on the next forum? You really think they're going to remember/apply what I say? Ha!
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:20 pm GMT by aaronw
| TheSalche wrote: | supa is just trying to point out that "good posts" don't just say "do X", more explanation is needed for the advice to be good, because this is only one instance over tens / hundreds thousands hands one will play in NLHE (or any game).
this exact situation may not come up again for a long time, so what we need to learn/discuss is a bit more general than "how do i play the flopped nuts" |
I understand that, but when he just says everyone elses advice is wrong I think it would be beneficial for him to atleast say why he thinks we are all wrong and what he feels the best way to handle the situation would be.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:25 pm GMT by aaronw
| supafrey wrote: | the vast majority of posts on thp seem to be people answering what they think they're supposed to say, rather than what ppl literally believe/would do. People also even constantly write things like "i know you're supposed to do this, but i would probably..."
People need to start thinking WHY they're doing what they're doing.
Telling someone that is just ctrl + v'ing what they hear on espn the "right play" doesn't help them. What are they gonna do? Repeat what I said on the next forum? You really think they're going to remember/apply what I say? Ha! |
It's worth a try. And it is possible that you could help someone.
Posted Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:28 pm GMT by swiftone
All this contraversy really makes me realize how much more there is to learn about this game lol
Posted Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:37 am GMT by supafrey
there's a delicate balance in a game where the #1 reason we're playing is to steal each other's hard earned cash. we teach on this forum despite it being entirely contrary to our intent within this poker universe - what good is it to teach our possible villains, etc...
However, clearly people being here shows that there is something else at play. A community that overrides mere monetary concerns - heck, some of the thp games, boasts and challenges that I've been a part of (I remember challenging the whole of IRC at one point to play "any game, at any stakes", being stuck to play Stud and PLO8 against ppl that knew what they were doing...) are definitely -EV.
So clearly I'm here to teach people, and not just to be a prick. With that in mind, sometimes I personally believe that telling people the right answers will either be pointless or fruitless...
Posted Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:19 am GMT by MrDarling
Why does every serious good theoretic topic has to turn into people berating Supa for not feeding them the answers with a spoon.
| aaronw wrote: | | MrDarling wrote: | I think you played fine.
Dude hit 1 of 4 outers and I don't think he would have folded to any bet. (we talked about not folding a set, didn't we) |
I think he had more than 4 outs... unless I am missing something...
According to my calculations he has 10 outs |
No, you're right, I'm wrong.
I'll bite.
Preflop - We have a marginal hand. UTG mini raise. Should we really call out of position? Unless we hit the flop hugh any flop we do hit could hit someone stronger. Especially with 4 people in the pot. How ever, we probably have the odds to call.
So, do we?
Flop - we hit the pot hugh. In fact we flopped the nuts. However, this board can easily turn scary for us. A flush draw is out there. A higher str8 can hit. With 4 people in the pot we need to eliminate. So I guess we need to overbet here?
Turn - harmless card and we're HU. We can take two routes here :
1. Slow down and let him take a stab at a turn. We're at least 75% to win against any hand (75% vs AdQd , 78% vs KK, 80% vs Ad9d)
2. over bet again. Make him pay to draw.
River - Hard not to be result orientated here. So I'm really out of my depth. I guess the right move is to bet and then stand speechless when he moves allin (a typical DN move)
Thats all I got - its really not much at the moment. That's why my current BR is smaller then my hourly rate.
Posted Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:10 pm GMT by aaronw
| supafrey wrote: | there's a delicate balance in a game where the #1 reason we're playing is to steal each other's hard earned cash. we teach on this forum despite it being entirely contrary to our intent within this poker universe - what good is it to teach our possible villains, etc...
However, clearly people being here shows that there is something else at play. A community that overrides mere monetary concerns - heck, some of the thp games, boasts and challenges that I've been a part of (I remember challenging the whole of IRC at one point to play "any game, at any stakes", being stuck to play Stud and PLO8 against ppl that knew what they were doing...) are definitely -EV.
So clearly I'm here to teach people, and not just to be a prick. With that in mind, sometimes I personally believe that telling people the right answers will either be pointless or fruitless... |
I agree with you in this point. I think that when you tell people your answers, you should give the reasoning behind them. This will make people think about the hands more instead of just getting "spoon fed" the answers.
Posted Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:20 pm GMT by supafrey
fine. no more theory discussion from me period. saves me these talks.
from now on I charge or ignore + laugh.
Posted Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:38 pm GMT by zinn0
| supafrey wrote: | | My head hurts. |
Posted Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:17 pm GMT by JMX360
IMO, you actually made the right play. You probably lost the least amount of money possible on that hand. As the earlier posts said, he probably would've called you with his set on the flop even if you went all-in.
Posted Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:30 am GMT by MrDarling
| supafrey wrote: | fine. no more theory discussion from me period. saves me these talks.
from now on I charge or ignore + laugh. |
You only get like that when one guy complains..
Instead, ignore that one complainer and keep sharing your wisdom with us willing ones. The more enlighten and guru like you'll be here, the better the chances someone will take lessons from you.
I actually agree with your method and would have loved some comments about my thoughts in this hand.
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