flashing hole cards to heads-up player |
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Posted Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:10 am GMT by playerone
Hello,
This is my first time posting my question:
We were playing a Hold'em tournament (play chips) yesterday and had a discrepancy. I am hoping for some clarification or some official ruling that I can post to my buddies.
Scenario:
There were 3 players: A - button, B - small blind, and C - big blind.
Player A raises, B folds, and C calls.
Flop: Ace, 4 and 5 (suits irrelevant for this scenario)
C - bets
A - reraises all-in
C - takes time and thinks out loudly and asks for chip count;
C - counts the amount of chips A has remaining with right hand (C has A covered)
C - he shows cards to both players momentarily with left hand and then throws in the chips into the pot with right. (all happens within a second)
C has history of showing cards to other players when folding.
NOTES: Player C never mucks the hand; he shows player A (and B) his cards (Ace - 7) and then throws chips into pot (calling A's all-in bet). C NEVERsaid anything verbally.
Player A is upset and says that the action of C showing him his hole cards is saying that C is folding. Player A also says flashing the cards out to try and "get a read" is illegal, thus killing C's hand. C says that his actions of throwing the chips into the pot indicates that he is calling the bet speaks for itself.
Player B agrees with A so it was decided to "KILL" the hand.
What are the official rules to this scenario? Would the hand be forfeited to A? Or was C's actions legal?
Please help. Also, if there is a website with official rulings, please let me know. (This will be evidence to my buddies to settle the rules.)
Thanks!!
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Posted Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:24 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
Well, there are no "official" rules, but this page has links to some variations that will cover common scenarios. In any event, these kinds of things should be agreed upon up front so that you don't run into these issues.
There should be no reason to kill this hand. Unless he threw his cards in the muck, or said "fold," player C did nothing out of the ordinary. The only other player was all-in, and the only thing left was to call the bet.
Let me guess...you were C and had player A beaten? Tell your friend to sack up and quit being a poor loser.
Posted Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:42 am GMT by Geno
In my home games, if you are heads up and someone is all-in, you are allowed to put your cards face up on the table if you like without them being dead. It doesn't happen often but provided it is agreed by everyone playing, it is a fairly common rule I would think.
In this case, saying his hand is dead is a horrible decision because not only is it a weird one, the fact that he called immediately after showing the cards means that you cannot even argue that he gained an 'unfair' advantage by getting a read off the player who was all-in.
Posted Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:25 am GMT by raisebot
According to TDA rules, exposing one's cards in a tournament is not legally permitted, even if heads up, however, the hand can not be ruled dead.
Generally speaking, a warning will be given upon first offense, and a penalty will be given on subsequent offenses. Penalties will usually be a set time limit that the player must be away from the table, thus getting blinded out, after the offending hand is played out. If the player returns and persists to make offenses, the penalties will generally increase, from a longer time penalty, up to and including disqualification from the tournament.
Posted Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:29 am GMT by raisebot
According to TDA rules, exposing one's cards in a tournament is not legally permitted, even if heads up, however, the hand can not be ruled dead.
Generally speaking, a warning will be given upon first offense, and a penalty will be given on subsequent offenses. Penalties will usually be a set time limit that the player must be away from the table, thus getting blinded out, after the offending hand is played out. If the player returns and persists to make offenses, the penalties will generally increase, from a longer time penalty, up to and including disqualification from the tournament.
edit- link to the rules and official rules-
http://www.thepokerforum.com/tdarules.htm
6. Penalties: A penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, if a card(s) goes off the table, if softplay occurs, or similar incidents take place. Penalties WILL be invoked in cases of abuse, disruptive behavior, or similar incidents.
34. Penalties available for use by the TD are verbal warnings, 10, 20, 30, and 40 minutes away from the table and may be used with discretion. These may be utilized up to and including disqualification. A player who is disqualified shall have his chips removed from play.
36. A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.
Posted Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:14 pm GMT by supafrey
one day ppl will realize that there really is no holdem rule book and that you're supposed to figure these things out before you start playing...
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