Posted Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:09 am GMT by Dave B
Played some 6 handed limit on Fult Tilt last night and for about 3 hours there was one manic who was pushing every street. He would either raise preflop, or if he limped and someone else raised, he would 3 bet EVERY time. He was in 90% of hands and raising 90% of the time. The pots were averaging 10-12 big bets, and for 6 handed, that is HUGE. BTW-we had 15 people on the waiting list at one point but no one was leaving.
You would think that this was a dream come true, and at times it was, but he was also VERY difficult to play. Do you really feel comfortable capping w/ top pair knowing that he would cap w/ Ace high or any draw?
I have only seen players like this a handful of times. What usually happens is that someone starts playing exactly like them while the other players get real tight. So you end up having 3 way pots with 2 manics and one person w/ a premium hand.
Here are some tips that work for me when dealing w/ these guys (dont fool yourself, they are not necessarily fish, they know what THEY are doing and know that they will win in the long run):
1) Obviously, dont bluff. He raised several times on the river w/ 92 and no pair.
2) Rarely raise, sounds weird, but being a calling station is the better play. For good hands, bet out, let them raise and just call. Obviously reraise w/ very strong hands (top 2 pair or better)
3) Dont chase or call w/ nothing. As hard at this is, your A10 might be the best hand 90% of the time against the manic preflop, but if you miss the flop you need to fold, play YOUR game, dont get sucked into playing his.
4) Fold low pairs, it is very tempting to play these thinking that you will be paid off if you hit, but the fact that the pot is capped preflop w/ 3 way action a lot of the time, you will be putting in a ton of chips w/ hands that have very little showdown value unimproved vs 2 other players.
5) Draws are also tricky. Here is where I depart from what makes sense and just check and call even if I have pot odds to raise. The maniacs will do the betting, you seem to get paid off better when you hit if you arent aggressive.
2 fun hands that show this guys lack of concern for his stack:
Me BB AK, he limped, I raised, he reraised, I capped preflop. Flop AK2 rainbow. I bet, he raised, I called. Turn Q, I check raised, he 3 bet, I called. River blank, I bet, he raised, I called. He showed down QJ. Man, what did he put me on????
Me BB KQ and raised his limp, he 3 bet, I called. Flop K66 rainbow, I bet, he raised, I called. Turn 10 I bet he raised I called. River 8, I bet, he raised I called (expecting 96 or something). He shows 97 suited. Zero outs of the flop and drawing dead if I have KK and goes runner runner straight. DOH.
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Posted Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:25 pm GMT by lwestatbus
Very interesting post on an interesting subspecies of Homo Pokerus. One good story and one interesting side issue with this kind of player.
Had one of these guys in a $1/$2 FL 10-handed ring game last week and I took down two pots totalling over $100 in not quite back to back hands with nut flushes both times.
A problem with these guys is that you can invest a lot of money drawing to great odds but if they leave the table before you hit you're kind of screwed.
Posted Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm GMT by Dave B
I had a couple of 25+ big bet pots w/ a nut flush and a boat-so I was running good.
You are absolutely right, they might get up before things even out. Also, he broke players 6-8 times making many reload. I think there were about 30 typical buy ins of chips on the table when he was finally done.
Posted Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:13 pm GMT by MrDarling
I played against a similar player on a NL full table $10NL.
I think he seen 90% of the flop. Raised often with rags and often stack people when his 72o hit the board hard.
In fact, I am ashamed to say I gave him half my stack calling him down with AKs on a 22T flop.
A couple of hands later I got it all back with J's against his ATo. He called my hugh preflop raise. And kept calling my pot+ bets unimproved to SD.
I saw him reload 3 times.
DO NOT loosen up when playing against these players.
It can get kind of boring, but you need to wait for premium hands. Since it does make few player on the table loosen up their requirement, you get a chance to take their money as well.
Posted Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:21 pm GMT by supafrey
| Quote: | DO NOT loosen up when playing against these players.
It can get kind of boring, but you need to wait for premium hands. Since it does make few player on the table loosen up their requirement, you get a chance to take their money as well. |
Wrong.
When a player starts going nutso (seeing more than 50% of the flops, for instance) even mediocre hands become shockingly more powerful. The trick to it is playing hands where you KNOW you're winning. A loose/aggressive player's main strength is fear. Loosen up ALOT with hands where post flop play becomes simpler and utilize any LAG's worst fear: position.
In NL where big mistakes can often punish LAGs that have been slowly stealing blinds and getting overconfident, consider playing suited connects, suited gappers, pp to larger raises, Ax suited, etc. SIMPLIFY YOUR GAME
Posted Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:29 pm GMT by Dave B
They also are attempting to get people outside of their comfort zone. If you never call 3 bets (limit) preflop with less than AK AQ and Js on up, then you will not be successful.
You definately need adjust your play, but it is a fine line.
You definately need to loosen up, but you cant aimlessly splash chips either.
Posted Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:12 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Especially if you can get the maniac heads up in a pot, your hand selection should be just a little better than his--you want to play as many hands against this type of player as possible so long as your hands are just a little better on average. When a third player enters the pot, that's where you need to pay a little more attention.
Posted Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:52 pm GMT by MrDarling
Good point Supa.
I miss worded my self.
I do not tighten my preflop selection (But I don't loosen it up as well - you often see player call maniac allin with crap like QJo etc...). But post flop, I will only raise if I'm pretty sure I'm in front.
The problems his, when playing against a stupid maniac, who already went through 2-3 stacks, you simply can't know when your hand as any strength.
I've seen him re-raise with A high, and call big bets with A high only.
But since he plays almost every hand, especially to a raise, he often catch a decent pair against an unimproved AK. Or a well disguised 2 pair against TPTK.
Posted Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:31 am GMT by TheSalche
| supafrey wrote: | | In NL where big mistakes can often punish LAGs that have been slowly stealing blinds and getting overconfident, consider playing suited connects, suited gappers, pp to larger raises, Ax suited, etc. SIMPLIFY YOUR GAME |
I think you point is much more valid in NL than in limit because you can punish LAGs with bigger bets and not be restricted by the betting structure.
I may be putting words in his mouth, but Dave may be saying don't play the same junk hand they play J6, 92, etc ... but suited connectors, one gappers, etc become more powerful since your implied odds increase a ton when you have a player capping ace high.
Posted Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:22 am GMT by Dave B
I would pretty much eliminate suited connectors from all short handed games. You just dont get near as many multi-way pots to justify playing 8 high. I might play one in 5 and usually open w/ a raise to disguise the weakness and create better odds on draws if they come.
See the "Dave B 4 card theory" circa 2004. When you raise w/ junk, you can represent the 2 big cards people put you on and play the 2 that you really have as well. Just dont do it every hand.
Back to a playing a maniac, you want to play your premium hands and win 60% of big pots and fold anytime you miss. So you might lose 80-90% of small pots by letting him steal, but you hope the 60% of big pots will balance things out. Then on the 1-2 times an hour when you get a monster, you make your money.
Posted Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:32 am GMT by Phil14312
| Dave B wrote: | Played some 6 handed limit on Fult Tilt last night and for about 3 hours there was one manic who was pushing every street. He would either raise preflop, or if he limped and someone else raised, he would 3 bet EVERY time. He was in 90% of hands and raising 90% of the time. The pots were averaging 10-12 big bets, and for 6 handed, that is HUGE. BTW-we had 15 people on the waiting list at one point but no one was leaving.
You would think that this was a dream come true, and at times it was, but he was also VERY difficult to play. Do you really feel comfortable capping w/ top pair knowing that he would cap w/ Ace high or any draw?
I have only seen players like this a handful of times. What usually happens is that someone starts playing exactly like them while the other players get real tight. So you end up having 3 way pots with 2 manics and one person w/ a premium hand.
Here are some tips that work for me when dealing w/ these guys (dont fool yourself, they are not necessarily fish, they know what THEY are doing and know that they will win in the long run):
1) Obviously, dont bluff. He raised several times on the river w/ 92 and no pair.
2) Rarely raise, sounds weird, but being a calling station is the better play. For good hands, bet out, let them raise and just call. Obviously reraise w/ very strong hands (top 2 pair or better)
3) Dont chase or call w/ nothing. As hard at this is, your A10 might be the best hand 90% of the time against the manic preflop, but if you miss the flop you need to fold, play YOUR game, dont get sucked into playing his.
4) Fold low pairs, it is very tempting to play these thinking that you will be paid off if you hit, but the fact that the pot is capped preflop w/ 3 way action a lot of the time, you will be putting in a ton of chips w/ hands that have very little showdown value unimproved vs 2 other players.
5) Draws are also tricky. Here is where I depart from what makes sense and just check and call even if I have pot odds to raise. The maniacs will do the betting, you seem to get paid off better when you hit if you arent aggressive.
2 fun hands that show this guys lack of concern for his stack:
Me BB AK, he limped, I raised, he reraised, I capped preflop. Flop AK2 rainbow. I bet, he raised, I called. Turn Q, I check raised, he 3 bet, I called. River blank, I bet, he raised, I called. He showed down QJ. Man, what did he put me on????
Me BB KQ and raised his limp, he 3 bet, I called. Flop K66 rainbow, I bet, he raised, I called. Turn 10 I bet he raised I called. River 8, I bet, he raised I called (expecting 96 or something). He shows 97 suited. Zero outs of the flop and drawing dead if I have KK and goes runner runner straight. DOH. |
I agree with pretty much everything except #3. I've called down with ace high a lot of times. You check he bluffs...you call and win enough of the time to make this profitable.
Posted Sat Jan 06, 2007 2:33 am GMT by Phil14312
P.S. Sit to his left. If you are on his left you might as well just leave the table.
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