Posted Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:47 pm GMT by Phil14312
Bellagio 8/16 last week. Pretty good game, some definate weak spots.
Button is a pretty bad player, but aggressively good in spots, so he can be tough to read. I was getting the impression that he would autobet almost everytime if he had anything worth playing, but thats not solid at this time.
BB - typical old loose passive. Knows what he is doing but plays too many hand and goes too far.
UTG+2 - young guy, said he used to play for a living but now doesn't, I believe it...tight and knowledgeable but not a prodigy.
MP2 - middle-aged asian lady. Plays all of her draws and if she continues will generally see the river, can fold on the river with TP for one bet if the board is bad.
I am probably viewed a little weak/tight as I've had some decent preflop hands, raised, and basically folded to any aggression before.
UTG+2 opens, UTG+2 cold-calls, Button cold-calls, I call in the SB with red Jacks, BB calls.
Flop is Q 8 3. I check, BB checks, UTG checks (no queen) UTG+2 checks (no queen), button bets.
It was basically a raise/fold in my head. Whats your play and why?
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:02 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Raise. You need to get the hand heads up to buy yourself protection. There is a significant chance your hand is good here, as you said the button is known to be aggressive. Pot is too big to just fold, and calling has little chance of protecting your hand from all the other players.
Posted Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:50 pm GMT by Ensano
would 3-betting preflop be bad?
Posted Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:05 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Ensano wrote: | | would 3-betting preflop be bad? |
1) No one's folding. So you won't be narrowing the field at all.
2) You're bloating the pot with a vulnerable hand, OOP, that you won't be able to protect.
Posted Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:09 pm GMT by tame_deuces
JJ is a fairly strong hand even in multiway pots - I got alot of experience with that from online low stakes FL. I don't think a 3 bet would matter much..with alot of players in the pot we get set value anyway.
Posted Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:11 pm GMT by Phil14312
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | Ensano wrote: | | would 3-betting preflop be bad? |
1) No one's folding. So you won't be narrowing the field at all.
2) You're bloating the pot with a vulnerable hand, OOP, that you won't be able to protect. |
Thats my reasoning as well.
Posted Sun Jan 07, 2007 6:27 pm GMT by Ensano
just curious 
.. just for the wrecord FL isn't my expertise
Posted Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:56 am GMT by Dave B
I HATE QQ-10 10 IN THE BLINDS. Because you are bound to get in a ton of situations like this.
I dont raise preflop and I dont bet out. I dont automatically check raise but with that many players checking to the button and him firing, I raise nearly 100% of the time (was it a rainbow flop???). He might be looking to pick off the pot hear w/ ATC.
Now, on the turn, if I am heads up, I check/call or make one bet on the turn and check the river. If there are still 2 or more callers, I feel like I need to continue to represent the Q or 2 pair.
River I check unless my read is real strong that I have him beat (ultra aggressive player who would have popped me at some point w/ Q even after check raising the flop-no pop, no Q).
Posted Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:35 pm GMT by Aves
NOT 3-betting preflop is awful and weak. With so many other players in the pot, you are giving up a ton of value. Given the flop action, this is a super easy raise - folding should be the farthest from your mind. Keep betting until someone shows some aggression.
Posted Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:47 pm GMT by supafrey
yeah I'm curious as to why there was no 3bet pre. Value value value.
Posted Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:49 pm GMT by Dave B
3 betting there is just throwing money away.
Posted Tue Jan 09, 2007 1:27 am GMT by Aves
If you do a simple pokerstove evaluation giving MP2, button, and BB hand ranges as described in the OP, you would see that even if UTG+2 was only opening with QQ+ and AK, you would have a pretty sizeable equity advantage, and the OP did not make a note about this guy being SUPER tight. NOT taking advantage of that with 3 more people in the pot is "just throwing money away". What's hard about playing JJ in the blinds anyway? Define your hand well and the rest of the hand is easy to play.
Posted Tue Jan 09, 2007 8:03 am GMT by Dave B
Have you played 8/16 or 15/30 limit at Bellagio?
You will need to showdown a winner vs a 4 way pot if you pop to 3 bets. By keeping to pot relatively small and making them face 2 bets on the turn, you have a good chance to limit the field.
If you 3 bet preflop, there is $100 in the pot and you are making it $8 to day. If you just call the raise preflop and check raise, there is now $64 preflop and $16 to call. That is much different scenario.
In either case, the only way you are comfortable in a multiway pot is flopping a J. In this case, where do you get pair of more if you had 3 bet preflop or if you hid your strength, keep others in the pot and pop on the turn or river in a multiway pot?
Posted Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:13 pm GMT by Phil14312
| Aves wrote: | | If you do a simple pokerstove evaluation giving MP2, button, and BB hand ranges as described in the OP, you would see that even if UTG+2 was only opening with QQ+ and AK, you would have a pretty sizeable equity advantage, and the OP did not make a note about this guy being SUPER tight. NOT taking advantage of that with 3 more people in the pot is "just throwing money away". What's hard about playing JJ in the blinds anyway? Define your hand well and the rest of the hand is easy to play. |
The problem is you are OOP the rest of the hand. When you are ahead, you win the least, when you are behind, you lose the most. 3-betting did not even cross my mind.
Posted Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:38 pm GMT by suitedaces84
Being OOP makes me want to raise more. Think of it this way: the more money that goes in preflop the less important postflop play becomes (the opposite would be true in a deep NL game). Since you're OOP you're at a disadvantage postflop. You can make lessen the importance of postflop play by 3-betting preflop.
It's true that you will usually have to showdown your hand and that you'll often lose but that's no reason to not 3-bet. You'll still win way more than your fair share of pots.
| Quote: | The first thing to understand is that the EV of a value bet that gets called does not depend on pot size. If you bet into a huge pot with a strong hand and your opponent calls correctly with a gutshot you gain exactly as much as you would have if you bet into a tiny pot with a strong hand and your opponent called incorrectly with a gutshot. Note that the EV of their call does depend on the size of the pot.
The next thing to understand is the EV of forcing someone to fold. For simplicity:
-let A = the EV of a value bet that gets called correctly by a draw
-let B = the EV of a value bet that gets called incorrectly by a draw
-let C = the EV of a value bet that gets correctly folded to by a draw
We know two things:
1) A = B (as stated above, I can explain this further if anyone doesn't get it)
2) B > C (all this says is you'd prefer that your opponents call when they should fold)
We can combine these two equations to learn something valuable:
A > C |
The idea of keeping the pot small to so your bet can force others to fold a draw just doesn't make sense. In fact, you should be striving to do the opposite.
Calling does have some advantages on 3-betting, but keeping the pot small isn't one of them.
Calling when you have an edge is good if your equity is likely to change significantly on the next street and you will be able to get in the same number of bets either way.
For example, if an aggressive player in LP is the first one in and raises you might just call in the BB with JJ knowing you can c/r any good flop. This has the same result as 3-betting and then betting a good flop, except now less money goes into the pot when the flops is bad for you.
Posted Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:47 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
Personal preference, I'd rather keep my virtual button here (EP opened, not the button) rather than muddle the issue by retaking the initiative preflop.
Posted Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:52 pm GMT by suitedaces84
Good point.
Posted Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:58 am GMT by Phil14312
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | Personal preference, I'd rather keep my virtual button here (EP opened, not the button) rather than muddle the issue by retaking the initiative preflop. |
Virtual button is hot.
Posted Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:58 am GMT by Aves
What's wrong with taking the initiative when you got a really great hand? It's sad to see such weak play being encouraged on these boards. So what if you have JJ in the SB and 6 people limp - do you just call and wait for favorable flops to continue?
It seems that the advice I give in my posts are never really well received so I think I should just stop. Much like how supa felt with his NL advice.
Dave, FYI, I have played in the Bellagio 8/16 and 15/30 games while waiting for the 30/60, and while it may get loose and passive sometimes, that's still no excuse to play poor poker.
Posted Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:26 am GMT by Dave B
I know a lot of people like to 3 bet JJ from the blinds, even smaller pairs. I just dont. I prefer to see a flop before putting more chips in the pot when I will have the winner less than 1/3 of the time.
Lets say you do decide to 3 bet and then the pot is capped and you get the same flop. I assume you bet out, do you fold if raised? Do you call down?
I do like to get into and play big pots. But I also know that you can lose a ton of chips w/ a pair that is likely to be 2nd pair to most flops. You could also be drawing dead to 2 outs.
Posted Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:30 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Aves wrote: | | What's wrong with taking the initiative when you got a really great hand? It's sad to see such weak play being encouraged on these boards. So what if you have JJ in the SB and 6 people limp - do you just call and wait for favorable flops to continue? |
Of course I'd raise. It's a completely different situation. But calling JJ a "great hand" in a raised pot with a couple of cold-callers is being a bit optimistic. I would much prefer to keep position for one more round. As it turned out, that position didn't amount to much, but we have an easy raise on the flop now which also allows us to better define our hand while spending only 4 bets to do so. Short of flopping a set, this was about the best outcome I would hope for.
| Aves wrote: | | It seems that the advice I give in my posts are never really well received so I think I should just stop. |
Why do people see disagreement as a personal affront? suitedaces gave good reasons why he would 3-bet. What are yours? Calling it weak play and dropping mention of waiting for the 30/60 probably aren't going to convince me. Bring something else to the table besides your persecution complex...
...ok that was a jab. I couldn't resist.
Posted Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:38 am GMT by BeerWench13
| Phil14312 wrote: | | Virtual button is hot. |
Posted Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:39 pm GMT by Phil14312
| Aves wrote: | What's wrong with taking the initiative when you got a really great hand? It's sad to see such weak play being encouraged on these boards. So what if you have JJ in the SB and 6 people limp - do you just call and wait for favorable flops to continue?
It seems that the advice I give in my posts are never really well received so I think I should just stop. Much like how supa felt with his NL advice.
Dave, FYI, I have played in the Bellagio 8/16 and 15/30 games while waiting for the 30/60, and while it may get loose and passive sometimes, that's still no excuse to play poor poker. |
Really great hand. I described the open-raiser in early position as a guy who knows what he is doing and playing fairly TAG. Now think about our hand and his range, our position, the other players....I think JJ certainly becomes a play, but not a great hand. I'm listening to your arguments, nothing personal, but I don't agree with them.
|
|
