$1000nl - 5/10 .. how would jooo play it? |
|
Posted Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:44 pm GMT by supafrey
Full Tilt Poker Game #1581180452: Table Centennial - $5/$10 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:41:26 ET - 2007/01/11
Seat 1: nm_21 ($1,258.25)
Seat 2: bk shark ($586)
Seat 3: pavelzzz ($1,042)
Seat 4: Judicious ($490)
Seat 5: P0KERPR0 ($968.50)
Seat 6: CUONDARVR ($1,005.50)
Seat 8: d_wrek ($569.50)
Seat 9: 2olives ($442)
2olives posts the small blind of $5
nm_21 posts the big blind of $10
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pavelzzz  
bk shark folds
pavelzzz calls $10
Judicious folds
P0KERPR0 folds
CUONDARVR raises to $30
d_wrek folds
2olives folds
nm_21 folds
pavelzzz calls $20
*** FLOP ***   
pavelzzz ?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:55 pm GMT by TheSalche
Check/raise is an option, problem is that gives away that you have strong hand on the flop.
Making a 1/4 - 1/2 pot bet and "asking" for a raise would be pretty hot, then you could 3bet all-in
We don't want to see a turn card here, since we could be up against an overpair, AK, AQ, straight draw, etc ... dueces are also a possibility. If we do see the turn, it shouldn't come cheaply.
Posted Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:03 pm GMT by supafrey
i'm gonna reveal this street by street, btw, so I'd like a whole bunch of opinions from everyone before i reveal, etc.
for specificity, i'd appreciate if everyone ended / bolded their actual action of choice. "Pavel : folds". etc.
Gogogo
Posted Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:23 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
My first preference in this situation is usually the stop and go, unless a Jack came on the turn. Check/call the bet here and then bet 4th street. Drawbacks to this: gives your opponent a chance to hit a good card for him, like making a set if he has a pair, or a straight if he has something like KJ, AK, or 98. Also, if a scary card for him comes on the turn, like a heart, it may negate some of your action.
I'd opt for a combination of about 60% stop-and-go (check/call with intent to bet 2/3 - 3/4 pot on the turn), 30% check with intent to raise on the flop, and 10% betting out on the flop for around 1/2 - 2/3 the pot.
Posted Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:28 pm GMT by exit music
pavelzzz: bets $50
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:41 am GMT by Jauron
I lead out for $40 and hope to get raised. with zero reads on villian.
Anything you can tell us about villian? Having some idea how he plays would seem to make flop decision easier.
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:50 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| TheSalche wrote: | | Making a 1/4 - 1/2 pot bet and "asking" for a raise would be pretty hot, then you could 3bet all-in |
I don't see how you get from $60 to $1000 on one street.
I think I like an overbet here...
pavelzzz bets $80
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:04 am GMT by TheSalche
good point ... i guess i meant a step towards all-in 
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:15 am GMT by Skribbles
| Jauron wrote: | | I lead out for $40 and hope to get raised. |
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:23 am GMT by supafrey
With this many paint cards, flush cards, and our biiiiig stacks, I kind of wanted to put some money in the pot. Assuming a c/r may be a biiiit too strong (we want to hide the true strength of our hand here... hope our opp makes a big mistake, right?) some might opt for a bet out. It's definitely not a bad play.
However, I c-raise alot when i'm oop, mainly to show some strength but also to try and trick ppl into stopping the c-bet. Like... alot. Betting out vs c/r isn't too far apart, but I opted for a check.
bpavelzzz checks
CUONDARVR bets $60b
pavelzzz:?????
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:42 am GMT by aaronw
This may be a bit off topic, but then again maybe not. But is QTs a standard limp in EP in full ring? I must state that I play nearly 0 full ring and don't really know the nuances like I do for 6-max.
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:48 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
I liked the overbet, and I like raising a bit more than usual here too...
pavelzzz raises to $260
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:04 am GMT by supafrey
nah it's standard. but I have a 40vpip at 5/10, or something.
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:32 am GMT by exit music
Pavelzzz: call 60, bet 100~ on the turn no matter what comes off.
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:57 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
pavelzzz: calls $60
***TURN***
pavelzzz: bets $150
However, this is so situational. If you have a history of check-raising and your opponent might suspect some mischief, then I say go ahead and raise to somewhere in the neighborhood of $150 - $200. Without more knowledge of your image, I think it's hard to decide between check-raising and betting out on the turn.
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:11 am GMT by groton
we Raise it lets make it 200 to go
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:53 am GMT by Jauron
Grr was really hoping for non check raise.
Ok I'm going to play it a little different and try to coax some chips out by c/r kind of weak and following it up with a fairly weak turn bet to keep my man if he's got a variety of hands. Weak players will fall right in line on this one... if I check raise often this might look like a "safe" check raise that I can get away from, and the turn bet could mean a lot of things.
pavelzzz: Raises to $180
Assuming we get called I lead out for $220 on the turn, if that gets called I have ~half of villians stack in there I have a lot of options on the river.
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:56 am GMT by shorn7
I am coming late to the discussion, but here goes:
pavlezz leads for $40-$50 on flop.
I want to give my opponent the chance to swell the pot with AK or an overpair here AND I want to semi protect against the possibility of the FD. I hope for a raise that I can call on the flop.
As played, I do not check-raise. I smooth call and CR the turn unless a truly hideous card like the Jh falls.
So, pavlezz calls $60 on flop. Onto the turn...
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:21 am GMT by supafrey
To add some "image" (although I had only been playing for maybe 30 hands up to this point) I've got a vpip near the high 30s and our opp is pretty standard/anonymous normal.
Are we trying to get all of our op's stack here? Are we trying to keep the pot semi-moderate sized? How many turn cards hurt us?
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:37 am GMT by Jauron
I'm after his stack, which is why I don't like the c/r as much.
I don't like any A,9 or heart on the turn. I am not real fond of a King. Depending on how he reacts to our c/r I don't know that we want a 2.
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:37 pm GMT by shorn7
| Quote: | | I'm after his stack, which is why I don't like the c/r as much. |
Me too. I think due to the size of the stacks and pot, the best way to get it all is in chunks and hopefully avoid the power playes. I think we truly hate only 4 vards (J's), but we don't like a lot of cards (A, K, heart, pairing the 3rd board card). That is why leading here (and hopefully getting raised where we can either play sly and call or re-raise (depending upon the amount of the raise) is the best way IMO.
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:52 pm GMT by supafrey
well I do want his money in there, and the c/r plan obviously worked out.
Either way, this is my action:
pavelzzz raises to $160
CUONDARVR calls $100
Turn = 7 
pavelzzz ???????
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:58 pm GMT by groton
Lets bet out 200 now
were still ahead and i feel 200 he will call
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:09 pm GMT by exit music
I bet you could get him to raise again if you check again on the turn
paVelzzz: check-raise to 250-300 depending on the size of his bet
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:30 pm GMT by shorn7
pavlezz leads for $250-$300.
Don't try for the checkraise twice. Too much of a power play from an aggressive player like you and if he has any wits about hi, he won't bite unless you are beat. But, if he holds AQ, AA, or KK we want him to continue putting $$ in the pot so that the river bet can be close to all-in without seeming deadly. Lead is the only sure way to do that.
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:49 pm GMT by Jauron
Sticking with my orginal amount ~$220 on the turn.
Still hoping he fights back and giving him some rope without giving away free cards.
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:04 pm GMT by TheSalche
pavelzzz leads for $300
keep the bet big here on the turn, he's probably calling with a "drawing" hand for our purposes. that turn card was amazing, lets hope we don't see an ugly river card
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:59 pm GMT by exit music
The only reason I say check-raise twice is because I have seen you check-raise with f*ck-all many many times, if you check again your opponent might put you on f*ck all and a) value bet or b) try to push you out of the pot. I can't really think of a hand he'd call a check-raise with that he would allow check-check to happen on any street. My thinkin relys on the fact that people are using multilevel thinking and see a check-raise as a sign of weakness.
Posted Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:20 pm GMT by TheSalche
not many people fall for check/raises twice
Posted Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:49 am GMT by efram
flop I was thinking 2/3rd the pot, $50.
clearly check raise worked.
Turn: great card
pavelzzz bets $275
Posted Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:11 am GMT by MrDarling
Since Supa said he uses the c/r a lot, I can see it working again now.
Depends how you normally play your rags. Do you c/r twice? do you c/r flop then check/fold?
However, leading a smallish blocking like bet can also induce a raise, or at least a call.
Posted Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:36 am GMT by supafrey
For all intents and purposes (shorthanded, right) I have a monster. We want a gooood chunk of the stack.
No need to get checked behind and lose aloooot of action should a crappy river come. (There's alot of river cards that hurt our action - not necessarily putting us behind, but definitely scaring our ops)
Remember, sometimes you give away alot LESS information by betting than you do by playing it funky.
Either way...
pavelzzz bets $250
CUONDARVR calls $250
River: 8  , making the board 2 Q  T 7 8
Pot is roughly $900.
Pavelzzz: ????
Posted Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:26 am GMT by shorn7
Well I think we all agree that you aren't getting away no matter what he does here. The pot has close to $1k in it and I think you only have $500 left. No way you are going to fold Top 2 getting 3-1, so the question is what is the best play?
I think I might blocker here to try and set the bet size hoping that he will call with his overpair. If he has the flush, oh well...I am paying off. I would bet an amount that looks like you can still get away so that he might get frisky and represent a flush without having one and since you are calling, you get the rest of his stack.
pavlezz bets $225.
Posted Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:00 pm GMT by groton
I feel a Bet of 300 should get a call from a Overpair only problem is were beat by the flush and if the fish was messing with J9 but we doubt he was messing with J9
Posted Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:13 pm GMT by supafrey
| groton wrote: | | I feel a Bet of 300 should get a call from a Overpair only problem is were beat by the flush and if the fish was messing with J9 but we doubt he was messing with J9 |
i dont accept answers like this. what is the action?
Posted Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:51 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
Pavelz: Goes ALLIN
You've shown a lot of strenght already, with the check raise and the goodly sized turn bet. Your opponent has told you hes not going away. Now the pot is laying him huge odds ~2.5 to 1. If he thought you were playing for a flush why didnt he reraise the flop or raise the turn?
If he had the flush or straight draw, then all the money is going into the pot anyway, so you might as well try to get the most value from hands that you can beat. With his willingness to call and the size of the pot I think hes calling a 300$ bet and an all in push with close to the same frequency so go for the extra value.
Posted Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:01 pm GMT by Jauron
I'm a little torn here, I think I end up going $400 here. I might have tried a little more if that river card hadn't filled up a flush or straight, not so much because I'm giving him that draw but because he may give us those draws. I'm just trying to price him in now...
If he moves in, call it.
********
My other play that I'm torn with is to check and call down anything he bets. Letting him represent the hands that could have filled up. Unless this player is aggresive, this is probably the worse of the two moves.
Posted Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:02 pm GMT by groton
| supafrey wrote: | | groton wrote: | | I feel a Bet of 300 should get a call from a Overpair only problem is were beat by the flush and if the fish was messing with J9 but we doubt he was messing with J9 |
i dont accept answers like this. what is the action? |
i said it BET 300
Posted Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:27 pm GMT by TheSalche
pavelzzz checks
i think this is the perfect opportunity to use check/call
that river card filled up a flush draw and a straight draw, which is an argument for check/fold BUT given OPs image, villain could've easily been calling this down with one pair, and may think OP is giving up on the bluff
it is a a weak line, and it doesn't work well when villain checks behind with some garbage hand like AA
i guess that's what i'd do ... but is another $300 worth losing to protect our image?
Posted Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:47 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
| TheSalche wrote: | pavelzzz checks
i guess that's what i'd do ... but is another $300 worth losing to protect our image? |
Um, if his image is very aggressive, checking is the worst thing he can do. Use the image to get you more money, and you do that by betting and getting called by weaker hands... If he thinks you're full of crap hes not gonna bet 1 pair hands after you check cause he'll know you fold if you have nothing.
I'd agrue this is the worst place to use a check/call, to try to catch a bluff. You've shown too much strength with the check/raise on the flop and bet on the turn. I highly doubt your opponent will be betting any hands on the river that you can beat. If he hit his flush hes pushing anyway, and is most likely checking behind with hands like top pair that you could get to call a bet from you.
If you have an aggressive image and you have a big hand, not betting is the worst move you can make.
Posted Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:23 pm GMT by exit music
Pushy pushy
Posted Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:29 pm GMT by TheSalche
so if we don't check call, then we have to push
we have ~$550 behind, if we bet $300-$400 and fold to a raise, THAT looks much weaker than a check/call
Posted Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:09 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
| TheSalche wrote: | so if we don't check call, then we have to push
we have ~$550 behind, if we bet $300-$400 and fold to a raise, THAT looks much weaker than a check/call |
I don't think folding is an option at this point. He'd have to show me his flush/straight first and I'd still might call.
Posted Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:30 pm GMT by Phil14312
Have you shown down a big all-in bluff before on the river while at his table?
I like a push here. He's getting some pretty good odds to call with an overpair, but what sucks is that river card filled up a couple of draws which he probably is scared of. Its either 250 or 550ish. I vote push.
Posted Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:43 pm GMT by exit music
I change my vote:
Bet 200 and plan on calling if he goes over the top. He might just call with some hands that he might fold if you push here.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:58 pm GMT by efram
| Quote: | | He might just call with some hands that he might fold if you push here. |
I agree with this. That river card might scare him as well, isn't value betting here better than push?
If we push, and he folds, we're leaving money on the table.
If we're ahead here, Villian can only have a pair or lower 2 pair that he may call with. We don't want to scare villian out of the pot if he missed his draws with TP/GK or lower 2 pair. If he has a set, str8 or flush, we're getting stacked no matter what.
value bet.
pavelzzz bets $250
Posted Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:27 am GMT by weirdofreek
great thread. Whats the next step?
Posted Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:30 am GMT by supafrey
Pav bet 250
Posted Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:45 am GMT by efram
Results?
He called, pushed, folded?
Posted Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:50 am GMT by exit music
The other guy most likely pushed and showed down 3rd pair or something.
Posted Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:02 pm GMT by shorn7
OK. And your line of reasoning behind this amount?
Posted Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:57 pm GMT by supafrey
I dunno.
Okay, thanks for playing, guys! Hope you learned something.
Posted Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:34 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Oooh! Oooh!
I learned something!
When holding top two bet _something_.
Posted Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:07 pm GMT by exit music
I learned that no matter how many times you eat an onion, the onion always eats you.
Posted Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:19 pm GMT by Hurricane Ham
I learned that half the active forum wants to impress supa and jumped head over heels to respond to a hand he posted to see if he would do the same as you.
Posted Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:26 pm GMT by supafrey
| Hurricane Ham wrote: | | I learned that half the active forum wants to impress supa and jumped head over heels to respond to a hand he posted to see if he would do the same as you. |
maybe I post interesting hands more often than others?
or atleast .. like.. thinkers =P
Posted Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:54 pm GMT by TheSalche
maybe you should be posting more hands instead of criticizing others then in an attempt to improve the quality of the forum
or just stop bitchin' and leave
Posted Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:51 pm GMT by exit music
Every backhanded dick-slap comment from Supa comes with so much love, and behind the love is a wealth of knowledge. Although in front of all of that is a dick-slap right to the face, so judge him as you will.
Posted Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:37 pm GMT by crack
How pointless.
Just be normal Supa and post the whole hand history without results. Street by Street in seperate posts is a stupid idea. I had to get through 4 pages there just to see the action to the river.
Posted Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:02 pm GMT by efram
but it was so much fun jumping through all those hoops just to get no results.
Posted Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:45 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
WTF i just read this entire thread and I'm not going to get results?
Posted Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:28 pm GMT by tame_deuces
The results are completely irrelevant to the hand analysis though. Poker is about how you play your hand. The result is an unknown you should disregard and instead work with what you have.
I think not posting the results ever can be a good lesson in this.
Posted Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:58 pm GMT by Gunslinger
I don't mind not getting the results at all, but shorn asked the important question: Why? Why did supa make the river bet he did? Only by understanding the thought processes of those players much better than me on this forum (see DC's hand of the day posts on his blog for great examples) am I going to learn from them.
Posted Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:28 pm GMT by aaronw
Atleast state your thought process behind that bet on the river and let us know what the villain did.
Posted Sat Jan 20, 2007 5:38 am GMT by supafrey
why does our opp's action change our play?
I'll narrow it down to three possibilities:
1. They folded.
2. They called and won.
3. They called and lost.
Posted Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:43 am GMT by Skribbles
| supafrey wrote: | why does our opp's action change our play?
I'll narrow it down to three possibilities:
1. They folded.
2. They called and won.
3. They called and lost. |
You missed "They calll and split pot".
Donk.
Posted Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:08 pm GMT by aaronw
| supafrey wrote: | why does our opp's action change our play?
I'll narrow it down to three possibilities:
1. They folded.
2. They called and won.
3. They called and lost. |
To see how they reacted. Its possible they pushed over your bet, no? Also, if we had results, we could get inside his head and analyze his plays as well.
Posted Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:20 pm GMT by supafrey
my narrowing was to help you guys out..
Either way.. it seems I was outvoted, so I don't care.
He called and showed AA. I won the pot.
Posted Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:25 pm GMT by Ensano
nice to see people still get married to overpairs at that lvl...
Posted Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:44 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
So, being results orientated, pushing was the correct option.
Posted Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:45 pm GMT by aaronw
Nice hand, sir! Could you explain your thought process on the river bet, please? Do you think you could have gotten him to call more?
|
|
