Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:06 am GMT by mackkie
Read on this guy: Playing crazy allllll night. Standard raise is $10 in a 1/2 game and he c-bets every single hand. UTG i have seen him raise with KJo, J10h and bet big when he hits or misses the flop. I have been waiting to take advantage of him for 2+ hours now and couldnt hit anything against him.
Would you call this river bet?
If any response tells me to fold pre flop, I will petition the admins to have you banned 
Full Tilt Poker Game #1610895401: Table Belmondo (6 max) - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:58:57 ET
Seat 1: Big Shylok ($66.60)
Seat 2: BigDizzle4 ($114.90)
Seat 3: Gor30 ($380.05)
Seat 4: iowaswarm ($490.70)
Seat 5: I Luv Yu ($239.45)
I Luv Yu posts the small blind of $1
Big Shylok posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Gor30  
BigDizzle4 folds
Gor30 calls $2
iowaswarm raises to $10
I Luv Yu folds
Big Shylok calls $8
Gor30 calls $8
*** FLOP ***   
Big Shylok checks
Gor30 checks
iowaswarm bets $24
Big Shylok calls $24
Gor30 calls $24
*** TURN *** 
Big Shylok bets $32.60, and is all in
Gor30 calls $32.60
iowaswarm calls $32.60
*** RIVER *** 
Gor30 checks
iowaswarm bets $150
Gor30 ?
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Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:10 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
I probably push. I'd say you're up against a set and a naked A.
Oh...and fold preflop.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:17 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
And, if you don't mind me asking...
What are you doing calling off $60 if you're thinking about folding when you make your hand?
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:19 am GMT by Skribbles
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: |
What are you doing calling off $60 if you're thinking about folding when you make your hand? |
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:21 am GMT by mackkie
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | And, if you don't mind me asking...
What are you doing calling off $60 if you're thinking about folding when you make your hand? |
That big bet on the river was alarming and was cause for concern, wouldnt you say?
I checked it to the guy, he could have checked it and see who won the 3 way pot. Instead he decides to bet $150 into the side pot that just came about after the turn? Id say there is cause for concern there, although I do have this guy pegged as a loose cannon.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:26 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| mackkie wrote: | | That big bet on the river was alarming and was cause for concern, wouldnt you say? |
Ummmm, no.
| mackkie wrote: | | I checked it to the guy, he could have checked it and see who won the 3 way pot. Instead he decides to bet $150 into the side pot that just came about after the turn? |
Because he has a straight, probably has the all-in player's set or two pair beaten, and wants you out of the pot?
Stop looking for monsters under the bed.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:28 am GMT by mackkie
*** RIVER ***
Gor30 checks
iowaswarm bets $150
Gor30 calls $150
*** SHOW DOWN ***
iowaswarm shows   (a flush, Ace high)
Gor30 mucks
iowaswarm wins the side pot ($300) with a flush, Ace high
3-2-1BuStO sits down
Big Shylok mucks
iowaswarm wins the main pot ($197.80) with a flush, Ace high
3-2-1BuStO adds $200
Big Shylok is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $500.80 Main pot $200.80. Side pot $300. | Rake $3
Board:
Seat 1: Big Shylok (big blind) mucked   - a pair of Tens
Seat 2: BigDizzle4 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Gor30 mucked - a flush, Ten high
Seat 4: iowaswarm (button) showed and won ($497.80) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 5: I Luv Yu (small blind) folded before the Flop
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:31 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
So I woulda lost more than you.
Fold preflop.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:32 am GMT by mackkie
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | Fold preflop. |
Amen
Although I posted the results, I still would like some comments on this hand. Hopefully your opinion wont be swayed after posting the results.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:34 am GMT by daycri
aren't we supposed to not be results based??
Based on your own description of the player, and the board also having the straight draw, this is such an easy call. Why would you call the turn to fold when you make your hand? I jump for joy at his bet, and have to resist pushing.
There are sooo many more times he has a set or straight
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:37 am GMT by tame_deuces
Eeew, fold preflop there is a shortstack in there.
And if he wasn't in, jam that flop vs a LAG plz.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:46 am GMT by mackkie
I understand that people dont like my pre flop play, but isnt the key to winning some big pots mixing up your play and trying to hit a hand like that in order to double up?
Seeing him raise $10 for the past 2 hours every other hand, I would try to mix it up with suited connectors and hoping i would hit something because he is betting into you 100% of the time.
I understand this whole situation could have been avoided, but I think some people would agree with me that taking a shot like this isnt necessarily a horrible play, right?
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:50 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| mackkie wrote: | | I understand this whole situation could have been avoided, but I think some people would agree with me that taking a shot like this isnt necessarily a horrible play, right? |
Not if you have a plan. I don't think you thought it through.
In fact, they have a name for people that do what you did in this hand...
...calling station.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:51 am GMT by mackkie
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | mackkie wrote: | | I understand this whole situation could have been avoided, but I think some people would agree with me that taking a shot like this isnt necessarily a horrible play, right? |
Not if you have a plan. I don't think you thought it through. |
What do you mean by this, can you be more specific?
e.g. fold after the flop unless i hit a straight or 2 pair?
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:56 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| mackkie wrote: | What do you mean by this, can you be more specific?
e.g. fold after the flop unless i hit a set or something? |
You got the flop you were looking for...now what? You called all the way down without making any attempt at the pot. And when you make your hand, you're not sure if you should call?
Your action looks lost on all three streets.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:02 am GMT by mackkie
TBH I was just going to call him down with no intention of betting. I have never used this kind of play before, I am usually very agressive. If i hit my inside straight or my flush, then I was confident I had the best hand, however.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:18 am GMT by daycri
| mackkie wrote: | | If i hit my inside straight or my flush, then I was confident I had the best hand, however. |
But you caught the flush and had no clue if you should call.
You got what you wanted, just got unlucky and ran into him having spades too. Didn't even feel like he had them
Only fault I have with your preflop play, is you are playing the maniac, but letting a short stack jump in with ya, who can jeopardize the whole thing. You varied your play though so we can't fault you, the river was either Call or Push, theres no question about it.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:00 am GMT by supafrey
folding preflop with about 40x the bet behind vs the aggressor? 6 handed? with relative position on the better + our shortie in between?
Are you guys really that bad?
errr... let me rephrase.
Are you guys really that nitty?
Let's divide the amounts by 4 to make them easier to conceptualize. If we had $95, our opp had us covered, and the shortie had $17, and the preflop raise was to 2.5 after we had already limped for .5, 1 caller, and we fold?!
?!
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:02 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
I'd rather be nitty preflop than nitty on the river after I've sunk 20% of my stack into the hand.
And, no, my "fold preflop" was a little sarcastic.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:03 am GMT by supafrey
irrelevant to my discussion.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:04 am GMT by supafrey
do i really haveta write an article about this?
there are some nuances to playing with shorties you guys seem to be ignoring. there's alot of benefits to having them in there.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:09 am GMT by aaronw
| supafrey wrote: | do i really haveta write an article about this?
there are some nuances to playing with shorties you guys seem to be ignoring. there's alot of benefits to having them in there. |
Could you please expand/explain that? And what I think was being advocated was that if he doesn't know what to do with a really good flop like this and doesn't know what to do on the river when he hits his hand, then maybe he shouldn't be playing these types of hands. (I believe).
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:13 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| aaronw wrote: | | And what I think was being advocated was that if he doesn't know what to do with a really good flop like this and doesn't know what to do on the river when he hits his hand, then maybe he shouldn't be playing these types of hands. (I believe). |
+1
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:32 am GMT by tame_deuces
Versus people who raise light in 6-max I don't see no reason for limp-calling preflop with an SC if we're not jamming when we hit draws no, that is absolutely correct.
Unless they have a tendency to fire all barrels with air repeatedly.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:38 am GMT by supafrey
While you did make the point "if you bet this, wouldn't this river be nice", you didn't seem to connect that point to the reader by being reductionist to the base of "fold preflop". The cards themselves can very easily be played this way pre and still be a winning combo. There's nothing "wrong" and hypothetically for a decent player it's a very profitable call.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:52 am GMT by tame_deuces
Maybe, I prefer a raise preflop too a L/C though. Implied odds at 6-max aren't always the best.
Light raisers come in a wide variety of sizes and shapes though, it wouldn't surprise me if you and me have quite different experiences to what they are and how the pots form out after the flop simply due to our differing stakes.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:55 am GMT by supafrey
possibly. but I've played 13k hands at these stakes in the past 3-ish weeks.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:07 am GMT by tame_deuces
Well, point taken you have more experience than me.
I still think looking at how much someone who bets light preflop has behind preflop is iffy though, most of the time he won't get a good enough hand to part with it postflop, so he has to be overly aggro or overly stupid for it to work. I'd def prefer folding to L/C and I'd think about betting out or limp-raising him also.
Like if I limp-call you preflop - since yyou're quity laggy- with a SC, I don't think you'll offer the greatest implied odds.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:09 am GMT by supafrey
yeah but OP isn't psychic. it could have been limped around. once the limp has been made, the call of the preflop raise is probably a smallER mistake than folding.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:12 am GMT by tame_deuces
Well, I agree with you there. If you limp in 6-max it better be with some kind of hand you intend to call/raise a reasonably sized raise with, and this hand qualifies for that.
I don't think we should fold this after our initial limp, if I have come off as saying that I'm misinterpreted.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:14 am GMT by supafrey
| Quote: | | I'd def prefer folding to L/C and I'd think about betting out or limp-raising him also. |
This is the moot point. Nobody ever really plans to L/C, especially not to an accuracy level that makes the it better/worse than folding could be in our hypothetical fantasy land.
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:29 am GMT by tame_deuces
Well, I got the impression that the guy was a lagtard, I don't think it is unfair to assume a pot will be raised then. Lagtard + shortie after us ain't optimal for limping.
And hey I plan to L/C all the time, alot of people hate that I don't want to disappoint them. 
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:30 pm GMT by mackkie
Supa, after seeing your video on you tube I was really hoping you wouldnt criticize my play here
Posted Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:54 pm GMT by supafrey
this hand is pretty un-axiomable (I made up a word). There's no real set rule to play by and I've seen it turn out this exact way BUT also seen it turn out the exact opposite way countless times each. I go for my gut feeling on this one.
And don't mistake my "video" for how i play. 
Posted Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:57 am GMT by MrDarling
last session I play was the only time I almost folded a rivered flush.
We were 3 to the flop and I had small suited connectors in the BB
flop gave me the flush draw, 2nd button and a back door str8 draw.
villain 1 checked, villain 2 a poor LAG who stabs every pot, bluff bet lay down if behind make his normal min bet - I decide to draw for cheap instead of going to the c/r.
turn pair the top card on the board (7)
check, check , min bet , call call. Now my draw is not that hugh the board is paired but I get odds to call.
The river complete my draw. I have a bad feeling so I decide to simply check / call
now EP bet the pot, LAG min re raise and I'm pretty close to folding. Alas, I'm not good enough to fold a flush. I call, luckily EP also only call to show a higher flush. LAG simply had trips.
Posted Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:06 am GMT by suitedaces84
Why did you check the river? I would guess your answer is because you though this guy was a maniac and would make a large bet with worse hands frequently. If that's the case, why would you think about folding? If that's not the case, why did you check the river?
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