If Someone wanted to go pro? |
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Posted Mon Jan 29, 2007 3:46 pm GMT by Ciso_B
Hypothetically , if someone wanted to go pro , how much money would you think would be a good amount to start with? How many hours a day would be a good amount? Is there such thing as tournament pros? (think there is), What should be the amount one should be looking to make per annum? Can you even get a mortgage if you are pro poker player?
These are all questions I have inclination toward answers but its all a bit hazey, btw, I am not going Pro or anything like that, I am just curious to know the routine and basically lifestyle of that of a professional poker player. I think I could definitely make enough of a living, but I waste money, dont keep records of win/losses', and generally dont have good discipline @ this game in terms of money management.
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Posted Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:14 pm GMT by cayouche
To be a poker pro means that you can make a living out of poker.
IMO, nowadays, $40K a year is the minimum to have an "ok" living. This gives about an $20/hour salary, for a 40h/week for a regular job.
$20/hour is 1 big bet / hour at 10-20 FLHE.
If you go pro, you need a risk of ruin (ROR) of max 0.5%, and probably lower. Since it's your only job, you can't afford to go broke.
If your standard deviation (SD) is, let's say 20x $20 (big bet) = $400, an approximation of your bankroll (BR) needed is:
BR = - SD^2 * ln(ROR) / 2*HWR
which HWR means hourly win rate.
In your case, you would need about $20K of BR to make a living at some 10-20 FLHE game, assuming you're averaging 1 big bet per hour, 40hrs a week.
That however, would be a minimum, since you wouldn't improve. The profit you'd make would all go as your usual expenses.
Posted Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:37 pm GMT by khaosanroad
A solid player/grinder with a 4BB/100 winrate could probably get by at 100NL assuming he played 8 hrs a day 5days a week playing about 4 tables at a time.
I'd feel more comfortable playing 200NL with a starting BR of $8,000.00 and a few months worth of living expenses in savings for security.
It mostly depends on the lifestyle you want.
Posted Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:10 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
If someone asked my advice about becoming a pro, my first piece of advice would be, "DON'T." Depending on Poker for income is the fastest route to burnout imaginable. Poker makes a much better "side" income than a main income. If you could be happy doing anything else, do that instead of becoming a Poker Pro, because once you are part of the "lifestyle," it's very hard to get out of it. Most people become professionals because that's really all they know how to do, and find it very hard to make it in another field.
But, if you're determined, here's what I think you should take care of first:
1. Have enough money that you will NOT use on Poker to pay for all your expenses--food, rent, clothes, gas, travel, etc. for one year. And if you haven't won this much in Poker at the end of that year, it's time to find a real job or adjust your lifestyle. If you live in some backward country like America where not everyone gets health care, make sure you have health insurance.
2. Develop good financial discipline and keep EXTENSIVE records of your wins, losses, and expenses. Since you're not getting a paycheck, it's up to you to manage your expenses and earnings. This is extremely important for determining how much you can make, when you can make it, and whether that is enough to pay your bills and/or move up in stakes. If you can't manage your money, do not consider being a professional gambler.
3. Have good discipline in general. Since Poker is your job, treat it that way. Although it's nice to keep your own hours, try to develop a routine that works and stick to it. Know when you play well and don't play well. Don't play tired. Don't play drunk. Don't fall into a pattern of partying or recreational drug use that will destroy your ability to play well.
4. Have enough in the bankroll to account for big swings. I personally think you should have somewhere on the order of 500 big bets for limit, 50+ buy-ins for No-Limit, and 150+ buy-ins for tournaments if you want to keep yourself covered, and this is all in addition to the money you have put away for living. Money should be taken out of the bankroll to pay for living expenses, but NEVER the other way around. Ever.
If it still sounds like fun, go for it. But I strongly advise anyone against it for extended periods (as a student and soon-to-be teacher I've often gotten by in the summers off of Poker money, but I know exactly how much I have in the bank and when I can expect a regular income again; a full-time pro does not have this advantage).
Posted Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:32 pm GMT by snoogins47
I never formally made a transition to 'going pro' so it's hard to say, but as was said, living situations and the lifestyle you want are the main considerations. I was fine making a relative pittance per annum, because I had very few/sparse expenses, and was coming from working 40 hours a week at a motel for $8/hr. For me, the biggest draw was being able to continue to make enough to get by with a relatively tiny amount of time worked, and with flexible enough hours so as to not completely kill me with all the issues I've had regarding sleep.
I also was living at home with the parents when I started this whole thing. So the massive burnout didn't kill me, and were I to go brokeski (which thankfully I never did) despite the fact that I didn't have hardly anything to fall back on money wise, I would have still had a roof, and food.
This was all great, because despite how much I absolutely loved the game and the fact that I played constantly, I got burned out real real quick. And very hard. After the first few months of maintaining ~20 hours a week (though some was almost slept through and 2-tabling, just to get the hours in) my average over the first year dropped to 8 hours a week. Which is weird, because for a year or two prior to 'going pro' I was probably playing 40+ hours a week, in addition to school/work. It changes, and it changes a lot, when you start treating it as a business, and you pretty much have to.
If you (the unspecific 'you') were to consider it, I hope that you have an undying love of the game, an undying love of money, or unbelievable amounts of motivation to stick to a plan. As I found out through my 'career,' I don't at present have enough of any of them. I'd occasionally look starry-eyed at all the money I could be making if I played constantly, and then I'd go back to my routine of playing just enough to get by. With the exception of a few 'freaks' that are the folks that consistently make the TLB every month and all that, you won't play much. The majority of folks I've talked to averaged no more than 20 hours a week. Maybe partially because of our personalities, but also...
20 hours a week of 8-tabling online poker is way harder than 40 hours a week wandering around a motel. Even though it's not exactly rocket science, it is way more mentally draining than most sorts of 'real' jobs, if only because it is nonstop. There's room for autopilot, if you're good, but you're still sacrificing winrate.
If you're driven, and relatively good, you can make a living at relatively small stakes. I did (going weeks without playing at all, while still having to eat/pay rent doesn't really lend itself to moving up very much) and I know folks that have done it lower. (I never sat higher than 20/40 FL, or NL games with ~600-1k max buy ins. Even these were rare occasions, and not my regular games) I know of at least one person who regularly played 16+ tables at a time. He had propping gigs at a bunch of sites, and generally played 2/4 and 3/6 FL. I can't vouch for how much he made, but probably a surprisingly decent amount.
The mortgage thing isn't a huge deal, if you're meticulous in your records and pay your taxes.. at least in the States. It's nigh impossible to get anything but 'screwed' early on, but if you've filed taxes for a few years, making a solid amount of money with your 'small business' each year (which is how I've filed mine) and have a decent chunk of money saved and a good credit rating, it's probably not all that difficult. Well, probably not much more difficult than it is to get one as a self-employed individual in a lot of other disciplines. This is mostly hearsay and conjecture though (and the somewhat off-topic advice of the CPA I've consulted a few times) since I'm still one of the rental jockeys, and I'm probably done with this poker for a living thing, at least for now.
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