Don't play above your bankroll/skill level |
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Posted Thu Feb 01, 2007 9:58 am GMT by shorn7
I just experienced my worst ever month as a player. No, this is not a bad beat rant or a "share my pain" post. Rather, I hope my experience can be used by others as a model of what not to do going forward.
I had an extraordinary run of cards/luck/play in November and December. Combined, I was up close to $50k in those two months over less than 200 hours of play. Did I play well? Sure. But that is easy to do when the deck is crushing you with sets every third pair, hitting nut draws that had second nuts against them, and catching every player continuing with AK when tey missed. The result of all this is that I got cocky about my "ability" in absolute terms and relative to the field. Believe me, incredible success can lead you so far off track it is scary.
So, January comes. Why not continue to multi-table 5/10 and 10/20 NL? I have been killing the game, right? WRONG. It has become evident that a majority of my winnings were due to running well and not playing well. But, I was stubborn. Despite having only $20k in my online bankroll (a joke of a number to be playing these levels), I pushed forward, confident things would turn around. They turned alright...straight down. Mean reversion on hitting sets, missing a lot of draws, those continuation bets now coming from AA and KK instead of AK. Throw a few coolers in there as well and you get the result... -$17,000 for the month.
The bottom line is that my arrogance and previous success cost me a ton of $$ this month because I was playng way over me head. I didn't analyze WHY I won so much the previous two months, nor did I carve out time to study and prepare. I just played, figuring that I was good enough to continue to beat the game at such an alarmingly high rate. Well, clearly I was wrong.
This game can make you feel like you are a genius when you are winning, and can just as quickly humble you when things don't go your way. Don't do what I did and stretch yourself against games/players that you aren't ready for nor do you have the actual bankroll for. You might end up losing a car like I did.
Shorn
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Posted Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:11 am GMT by MrDarling
wow, thats an expensive lesson.
Though I seem to remember hearing somewhere that most pro went bust at various parts of their poker carer. Guess you have to taste losing before you can be a real winner..
Anyway, I feel like you are one of the stronger players around this forum. And I trust you'd soon enough pick up you game again and start building that BR quickly enough..
but yeah, poker as a way of making you feel you are the king of the world when cards fall your way 
Posted Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:31 am GMT by Kearsed
that sucks but you have to remember, the bigger tables dont always mean the better players....just more money to spend...
Posted Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:51 am GMT by cayouche
Wow, shorn.
I've been playing for Texas Holdem for 8 years now, and I've been playing online for at least 3-4 years.
I started on TruePoker, and back then, the minimum deposit was $20. Imagine that, there's not much you can do with $20, and back then, the smallest cash game was FL 1-2, pretty insane for $20. Anyway, all I could do was SnGs, and tournaments. I did manage to boost it up to $275, which was nice for a $20 to start up with. You know the rest, felt almighty, played higher buy-ins/limits, then lost it all in one night.
I felt like shit.
I deposited 2-3 more times, but it never really worked for me.
I tried UltimateBet, PokerRoom, PartyPoker, FullTilt (I can proudly say I've been there since the beta, a while back, like a few members here). None of them went really well. I remember withdrawing a few hundreds from FullTilt once, but that was it.
I asked myself what was my problem. The obvious answer was that I sucked. But then, I had been a consistent winner in live games and casinos. Even by then, even if I lost a couple of hundreds in online rooms, I can honestly say that I've never been "under" in my poker career. My live winnings compensated for my losses online.
So yeah, I sucked, but not really. It was something else.
Two years ago, my girlfriend got sick, and got hospitalized for 3-4 weeks. Daytime, I was working, and in the evening, I was at the hospital, but when the visits were over, I played online. I made a deposit on PartyPoker, $50. I managed to grind it up to $700, took $500 out, and boost the last $200 up to $1300. Felt like a God, played some PL1000, lost $400 in two hands, so I said, that's enough, I took the remaining $900 out. I had about $1500 profit in that month, which was huge for me, but that $400 loss in 2 really did hurt me.
I stopped playing online for almost a year. It gave me a lot of time to think about that $400 loss. That year of hyatus helped me. I became more mature, and had a new vision of the game. I finally learned the meaning of Bankroll Management.
I tried to convince many friends that BR management was the key to success in poker.
Last October, I decided to try something. From $50 to $10K in one year. I'm doing good so far, and I should achieve it well under a year, but I must admit that in at least 2-3 occasions, I've cheated my game plan. From my original $50, I went up to $350, then down to $20 because I played over my head. I never gave up, and got back to on my feet. However, since I have more winning sessions and losing ones, it seems like I take the losses a bit too hard and I tilt alot. Even last week, I was up to 1/3 of my goal, and almost lost it all. I wasn't playing bad, just over my head and unlucky. I kept at it, and won it all back, and some more.
We don't have the same bankroll, but I'm not playing for pennies either, so I know how you feel to some extent. I didn't lose a car, but still I lost a well equipped laptop  .
What I'm trying to say is, take a break, take some time off the game, it can only you do good. You'll even come back a better player.
Life is full of badbeats, and those beats are meant to be overcomed. Those who can achieve it, only grow stronger.
Posted Thu Feb 01, 2007 2:58 pm GMT by exit music
Above skill, above luck, above table selection and above whatever else, bankroll management is critical and without it, there is a 0.5% chance of being sucessful in the long run.
You played PL1000 with a $1500 bankroll? Duuurrrr yeah, definitely not a good idea.
If you think of Poker like Blackjack, playing without bankroll management is like playing blackjack by betting the same thing every time, you just will not win in the long run, it's simply impossible. To gain an edge in blackjack you have to count cards and make smart bets when the deck is in your favor. To win at poker you have to have 20-40 buy-ins for whatever limit you think you are good enough to play. NO EXCEPTIONS. For higher limits, you will need progressively more buy-ins to be comfortable. 40 buy-ins for 1/2 NL200 is standard/minimum.
Got $400 online? Want to play .25/.50 NL50? Not possible, if you play enough hands, a 4-5 buy-in downswing should happen about once a month, and if that happens right away, you are effectively f*ck. You gotta grind out NL25 until you have at least 1K. Ect ect.
Yeah I know I'm just reiterating what other pple have said, but it's something that everyone has to know, and it's a lesson that has to sink in and be applied by everyone here in order to be actually successful, otherwise you're nothing but a hopless gambler putting coin after coin into the slot machines.
Posted Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:13 pm GMT by supafrey
I did almost the exact same thing, except at 600 to 1k and over two months. You're not the only one.
Posted Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:56 pm GMT by cayouche
First, exit music, this is not about me, it's about shorn7. I lost $400, but it's a small price to pay to learn, don't you think?? This guy just lost 17 big ones here.
Second, don't tell us that you've never ever played in a game that you really shouln't have  , I find it hard to believe.
And finally, it is certainly possible to play "short-bankrolled". Do you really think the skill needed to beat NL10 is the same as NL1000?? If now I play NL100, and I feel comfortable, it's because now I can beat NL50. Being comfortable is not only when you have a decent bankroll, it's also when you're skilled enough to beat the game.
Take by exemple my friend supafrey here, since he replied to this thread. He plays NL600 and occasionally NL1000 as well, and he does good in those. He has the skills to play at these levels. Now, what if I give him $200 to play on a new site. Do you think he's gonna waste his time playing NL10 until he gets to $500 so he doesn't have to worry when he plays NL25?? That would surprise me. If he can beat NL600, he can definitely beat NL25 and NL50.
Posted Thu Feb 01, 2007 4:52 pm GMT by tame_deuces
If running good can make you feel better than you are, then running bad can make you feel worse than you are too. Just a reminder. 
| cayouche wrote: |
And finally, it is certainly possible to play "short-bankrolled". |
The problem with playing short-rolled is that it removes alot of your skill as an element from the game as you'll probably bust even if your good.
Posted Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:01 pm GMT by cayouche
True. I didn't mean playing on short BR all the time, just to start with. If you're always investing 1/5 of your BR, variance will catch you one day or another.
Posted Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:09 pm GMT by exit music
| cayouche wrote: |
Second, don't tell us that you've never ever played in a game that you really shouln't have , I find it hard to believe.
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Oh it definitely took me going busto on a site to learn this lesson, I am not pretending that I'm above all that. I'm just stressing how important Bankroll management is.
| cayouche wrote: |
Do you really think the skill needed to beat NL10 is the same as NL1000?? |
uhmmm, no
| cayouche wrote: |
Now, what if I give him $200 to play on a new site. Do you think he's gonna waste his time playing NL10 until he gets to $500 so he doesn't have to worry when he plays NL25?? That would surprise me. If he can beat NL600, he can definitely beat NL25 and NL50. |
Yeah but anyone can lose a vast amount over a short amount of time. In your example above, that 200$ you give supa doesn't represent his entire bankroll - if it did, he should grind it up from the low levels. Some players use (used  ) netteller, which contained X dollars to be moved from site to site. The amount you have on one site isn't the whole BR. That would be the case for supa and his 200$ gift.
For other players who play on one site and don't intend to redepoit 2-3 times, you really should have 20-40 buyins standing by. Don't assume you can beat a level by constantly playing short rolled because at some point you will go on a massive downswing and be cripppled, losing 1/3-2/3rds of your roll.
Posted Thu Feb 01, 2007 8:15 pm GMT by Jauron
It's a big reason why I think I'm at best a break even player online, I won't put up the bankroll to play the stakes I beat in live games even though I have the means to do it.
Posted Thu Feb 01, 2007 10:37 pm GMT by Ensano
the play is different from live to online at the same stakes... i beat the 1/2NL at the casinos but I don't think i'd beat those stakes online...
Posted Fri Feb 02, 2007 5:35 am GMT by Eusebio
I know you should never play above your bankroll, because of all the reasons shorn and others wrote.
But what if the game is really good?
For example:
I am playing at a local cardroom NL Blinds 1/2, but now I heard that the "real" casino (in the center and main shoppingstreet of he town) is offering NL 2/4.
There are just tourists and very rich guys there and friends told me that the game is really good.
So, if you have this information, would it be that bad to play that game?
Posted Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:12 am GMT by tame_deuces
| Eusebio wrote: | I know you should never play above your bankroll, because of all the reasons shorn and others wrote.
But what if the game is really good?
For example:
I am playing at a local cardroom NL Blinds 1/2, but now I heard that the "real" casino (in the center and main shoppingstreet of he town) is offering NL 2/4.
There are just tourists and very rich guys there and friends told me that the game is really good.
So, if you have this information, would it be that bad to play that game? |
If you are rolled for the 1/2, taking a shot at the 2/4 when its soft is all good in my book.
Posted Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:40 am GMT by MrDarling
btw guys, I think the main problem is not only playing out side of your BR but playing at levels you are not yet comfortable at.
Say you won a loads of money (in lotto or even a MTT) should you go ahead and play in the highest stakes you can find?
Posted Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:55 am GMT by wEbMaStEr
I'm sorry to hear that shorn, that really sucks and I hope you can get it back together. variance is a bitch.
Some great points on this thread. Yes b/r management is probably the single most important thing in a poker players life. but then again moving up is fun! I'm sure a lot of major players played under rolled at first. Then again, so did a lot of broke players.
I think what Darling says is probably the wisest, play where you are comfortable.
Posted Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:37 pm GMT by Skribbles
Tough one Shorn. I know this pain all too well.
There have been countless times that I've pissed away my entire bankroll by playing too high of stakes. Granted it isn't even close to $17K but it all hurts just the same.
Keep plugging and the cards will come back, along with the $$$.
Posted Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:18 pm GMT by efram
bummer shorn
one bright side, you learned a valuable lesson.
thats important, and just think, if the lesson didn't come now, it might have come later where the stakes were higher.
I like to find the bright side if possible.
I have no doubt you'll get it back, no doubt what-so-ever.
you got skilllzzzz
they will come into play.
Posted Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:20 am GMT by ScanX
Everythin you said is 100% true shorn.
Been there, downswing for 3 months in a row in 2006. (underolled at NL 5-10 too like u actually :p)
I'm "wiser" now, and when I start thinkin that I'm playing good and that nothing bad can happen, I immediately remember how shitty I felt all those days where I ended a loser.
I been running hot lately and today I'm down 6 buy-ins.
I dont feel as shitty because I knew it would come again and I was highly due a big down day. Still it hurts of course, but it's part of the game.
You just have to hope it doesnt last when it happens but you also gotta keep your head on your shoulders everyday whether you're up or down :)
Posted Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:45 am GMT by General Sal
I'm really curious now... what exactly are you playing?
5/10NL six handed, 5 tables simul? Something along these lines?
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