Turned set on broadway flop |
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Posted Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:19 pm GMT by TheSalche
Unknowns, less than 10 hands into the table, what line should I take here and why?
PokerStars Game #8266890573: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2007/02/03 - 20:14:13 (ET)
Table 'Sulaphat IV' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Sonny617 ($49.25 in chips)
Seat 2: Deuceisloose ($22.45 in chips)
Seat 3: Jonas22 ($91.05 in chips)
Seat 4: Synesthete ($48.75 in chips)
Seat 5: JNuey ($63.05 in chips)
Seat 6: Paulus_rus ($72.45 in chips)
Synesthete: posts small blind $0.25
JNuey: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sonny617  
Paulus_rus: folds
Sonny617: raises $1.50 to $2
Deuceisloose: folds
Jonas22: folds
Synesthete: calls $1.75
JNuey: calls $1.50
*** FLOP ***   
Synesthete: checks
JNuey: checks
Sonny617: checks
*** TURN *** 
Synesthete: bets $4.50
JNuey: calls $4.50
Sonny617: ???
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Posted Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:30 pm GMT by Skribbles
Raise to $15
Posted Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:12 pm GMT by exit music
Yeah you really don't want to let both of these jokers see the river.
Betting 15 is okay, but just think about the pot-odds that the first cold-caller gains from this bet. I'd like to see a raise to $22-$26 here.
You'd got position, pwn these suckafish and hope that you hit another 4 on the river :-P
Posted Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:19 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Can't we just C-bet the flop? I thought this was a good flop for us. (seriously)
Posted Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:24 pm GMT by exit music
I'm not sure what I'd do if someone pushes in after my $23~ raise, you're basically representing AK/AQ or perhaps JJ. You've basically pot-comitting yourself with this raise so a flush draw or straight draw probably wouldn't try to push you in. Even if you're up against Q-10 you still have about 10 outs on the river, so you pretty much gotta go with this one.
Another option would be to just call here and call whatever happens on the river unless it goes bet, raise all-in ahead of you.
You are probably up against AJ/KJ and either flush-draw+a pair, or a pair+straight draw.
This hand would be a lot simpler if you Cbet the flop then fold to a check-raise.
Posted Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:30 pm GMT by TheSalche
heh man, everybody thinks that when others post a hand its because of a bad beat ... i actually raised to $17 and they folded, just trying to get some opinions here
tame - this is a very bad flop for us because donks play Ax and Kx all the time, not to mention the pair + straight possibilties and the flush draw out here.
Posted Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:46 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
| TheSalche wrote: |
tame - this is a very bad flop for us because donks play Ax and Kx all the time, not to mention the pair + straight possibilties and the flush draw out here. |
Then why are you raising with 44? If you're not gonna c-bet on an ace flop, then I don't really see the point in raising with something that you're only gonna feel comfortable playing if you hit a set.
Generally when you raise preflop, people assume that a big Ace is a likely holding, so you'll get credit and can take the pot down.
Posted Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:44 pm GMT by TheSalche
two players in the pot, its not just that theres an ace on this flop, trust me i'd cbet an A T 6 rainbow board all day long, sometimes against two opponents. 44 is hardly a hand i "only feel comfortable with" if i hit a set
i raise with pocket pairs cause people sometimes get cute with overpairs / keeps my raising range wide to try to keep players from getting good implied odds on me, reading me well, etc
Posted Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:31 am GMT by Ensano
| TheSalche wrote: | | i raise with pocket pairs cause people sometimes get cute with overpairs / keeps my raising range wide to try to keep players from getting good implied odds on me, reading me well, etc |
I agree with this completely... It may be a leak of mine but OTB or in the CO I will raise with ANY hand I'm willing to play against almost any amount of limpers... I find it really disguises the strength of your hands and also lets you get paid more when you do have a big hand...
oh and I'm with supa on this cbet is a 95% thing... you gotta take a shot at that flop...
Posted Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:09 am GMT by witt10s
I think the raise to 17 looks solid.
Reasoning: It prices out draws and I think some worse hands can still call. There are many ugly river cards that could fall, but we have great position and the option of checking behind or folding if need be. If the river looks good, you can bet it.
Salche, what are your thoughts if the SB reraises you and goes all in?
Posted Mon Feb 05, 2007 4:33 am GMT by TheSalche
good question witts, I'd probably end up calling in the heat of the moment because of how few hands beat me and how many two pair/pair + draw combo hands that are out there ... I've got an out against the sets, and I'm way ahead of a lot, especially since the two betters probably have somebody else's outs
Getting 2:1 there, I'd call for sure.
Posted Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:26 am GMT by tame_deuces
The only time I like not C-betting this flop is if we check behind with the intent to raise any turn bet regardless what falls.
Posted Mon Feb 05, 2007 10:04 am GMT by shorn7
Definitely raise the turn and call a push. I find it hard to beleive that you are behind.
Posted Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:40 pm GMT by jeffonline
This to me is a scary flop holding pocket 4s, I find that a flops like these will be slow played by EP players looking for information from the original raiser. I can’t see that we were in front after the flop but it also appears no one was holding an A. On the turn they must have thought if no one was betting have a stab. When the original raiser come in with a big bet their KQ J10 no longer looked that good. I don’t think I could have c-bet the flop, if I got check-raised I would have had to fold. This to me is one of the 5% times when you can’t c-bet, as you would think someone would have a good part of this flop. To see the next card in this hand was a stroke of genius. Well played.
Posted Mon Feb 05, 2007 7:46 pm GMT by TheSalche
| jeffonline wrote: | | To see the next card in this hand was a stroke of luck. Well played. |
fyp
Posted Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:05 pm GMT by tame_deuces
To explain my reasoning, yes this is a horrible flop for a pair of 4s.
But this is also a horrible flop against a preflop raiser.
Granted, far from all poker players take stuff into consideration. But imagine if you are up against a preflop raiser from the blinds and the flop comes
J K A.
What kind of hands would you feel comfortable with on such a flop when you are OOP, what kind of hand would you need to continue on the turn if the preflop raiser c-bet and called a flop C/R. What kind of hand would you need to continue if the preflop raiser checked behind and raised a turn bet (disregard the 4, the preflop raiser's hand is an unknown).
What kind of hands would you fold to a C-bet here?
Now, as pointed out...there are bad players out there who won't think of stuff like this, but atleast consider the hand from the eyes of a villain and how they might think and if this can make some move profitable.
Posted Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:15 pm GMT by jeffonline
quote="tame_deuces"
What kind of hands would you feel comfortable with on such a flop when you are OOP, what kind of hand would you need to continue on the turn if the preflop raiser c-bet and called a flop C/R.quote]
I agree c-bets are required if you are the original raiser a good % of the time. In this case It would have paid off. I don’t know if I would have been to original raiser with pocket 4s and if I was I would have found it hard to c-bet into this flop. There is a potential for over pair/s stra8, flush draws and any combination of all 3 with two other players that should check-raise with a decent hand, leaving no alternative but to fold. Yes the perception of the other players is very important. So I ask "tame" the question when don’t you c-bet.
Posted Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:24 pm GMT by Ensano
| jeffonline wrote: | | ... So I ask the question when don’t you c-bet... |
when, on the flop, someone bets and another raises before it even gets to you...
Posted Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:15 am GMT by MrDarling
The only times I consider not c-betting is when bet into, or with some villain who keep c/r me...
btw :
FYP?
Posted Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:28 am GMT by TheSalche
Villains are unknowns here, and to me that makes them donkeys. Donkeys don't think about 3 betting preflop with AK, I just saw a guy today limp on the button with queens, then flat call a raise, and flat call a double barrel on a king high board.
That being said, they play Ax hands a lot, and into TWO opponents my 4s are never good. They could also be calling with a flush draw, how do I tell the difference?
For cbetting 2/3 the pot to be profitable you have to take it down over half the time, I just don't think that happens on this flop.
This flop is better than montone 89T, but not by a lot when you're holding 4s.
Posted Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:54 pm GMT by Gunslinger
| MrDarling wrote: | btw :
FYP? |
Fixed Your Post.
Posted Tue Feb 06, 2007 2:11 pm GMT by aaronw
I agree that checking the flop is best here. I agree with salche. Wow.... I find myself saying that a lot lately. Whats up with that
Posted Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:27 pm GMT by TheSalche
| aaronw wrote: | | I agree that checking the flop is best here. I agree with salche. Wow.... I find myself saying that a lot lately. Whats up with that |
agreeing with me = -EV
Posted Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:39 pm GMT by aaronw
| TheSalche wrote: | | aaronw wrote: | | I agree that checking the flop is best here. I agree with salche. Wow.... I find myself saying that a lot lately. Whats up with that |
agreeing with me = -EV |
Maybe thats why I have been losing a lot lately.... hmmm.....
Posted Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:14 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| jeffonline wrote: | | So I ask "tame" the question when don’t you c-bet. |
Large multiway pots where betting involves me more in the pot than I want to be, easiest example is prolly OOP with missed overs with 3+ players in the pot.
And sometimes I'll not C-bet just to mess a little with other players and I prolly do something funky on the turn to go with it, best for SH games and games with regulars really, so they can't predict your flop actions completely.
Vs shortstacks I'll often not c-bet a hit on the flop as shortstacks are incredibly prone to fall for it, at low stakes atleast, and shorties can't back out when they commit like a regular stack could do.
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