Posted Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:39 pm GMT by MasterMike
I would like to think im a fairly educated player outside of the room and inside of the room, whether that translates completely into my game is not so clear.
Sometimes i can get away with a good bluff, and i know its good because ill try to play it like i had the nuts or hit my draw or whatever and i think that my opponent is thinking the same (rarely on the lower levels). Normally when i bluff, its because i know that they have shitacki. That seems obvious, but it helps you from losing a lot of money by simply betting a lot with nothing.
But here is where things get a little messy. Sometimes i get away with a bet and win, yet im not 100% sure if i played it well. I know there is the well written bluffing 101 thread that ill take another look at, but i guess my question is, even if you win the pot, how do you know if you played it well or not?
Obviously if you win, you did something right, but when im in a hand (or maybe more hands)that seem identical to one that i bluffed with earlier, ill try it again and ill be beat. Then ill kick myself for doing that. Now, i dont think if i make the same play everytime ill win, but Im just wondering how good my 1st bluff was to use for the next time i try the same thing.
If that makes sense.
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Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:21 am GMT by MrDarling
Bluffs are all about timing. There is no right way or wrong way to bluff (well in theory).
Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:57 am GMT by crack
I am not too sure how to respond to the question and what you are looking for. I suppose I bluff when I sense my opponent as weak and I think the majority of the time I will get away with it and in the long run the bluff shows a profit.
The perfect bluff is of representation and knowing what level your opponent is thinking on and then playing accordingly.
You rarely get the same situation exactly, so what might work once may not work again if the conditions are just slightly different.
I suppose the trap you may have found yourself in from your post is "Well I bluffed like this earlier and it worked, so why not now" so I think the only advice to offer may be that you should not be results orientated (Bluff worked here so the same bluff should work there) and working out if the bluff you originally made was actually correct (+ev) in the long term. I suppose the best way to do that is to continue improving your game and posting hands for discussion.
I dunno if any of this helped or if I misinterpreted the question.
Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:52 am GMT by jimmer
There are certain things you need to consider when pulling a bluff.
The first is not doing it too much. If you bet/raise every other hand, theres no way you have the cards, so sometimes you must be bluffing.
The second thing to consider is the amount of players you're trying to bluff. I may bluff one player, maybe even two, But never more.
The third thing i consider is the texture of the flop. I would never try a bluff if the flop included two cards Queen or higher, I would never bluff on a flop with an Ace and I would certainly never try to bluff on a flop which had two of the same cards.
I also like to know a little something about the player I'm trying to bluff. For example-how likely is he to throw away his hand to a raise? Or How much do i need to raise to scare them off? Or will they fold at all.
You also need to consider the position of yourself and betting patterns of the other guy. If they call a large pre-flop raise, will they be scared from a raise on the flop? Maybe, but maybe not.
I guess you're not showing your cards when you do bluff? I'm ten times more likely to call your next bet with a week hand if i know you've previously bluffed.
Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:12 pm GMT by efram
jimmer wrote
| Quote: | | I would never try a bluff if the flop included two cards Queen or higher, I would never bluff on a flop with an Ace |
If you raised pre-flop, say with 88, or suited connectors, say 1 caller and flop is something like you suggest above. Wouldn't a continuation bet be appropriate some of the time, even if you missed the flop? And if opponant called our preflop raise with similiar hand as us, lower PP or suited or gapped connectors trying to hit, possible calling our PFR from the blinds, isn't this considered a bluff, the continuation bet?
You've missed the flop but bet anyway in hopes to represent the A, K or Q on the board. I do this alot and it works alot.
Seems this is indeed a bluff as I'm not holding anything but how can opponant know I don't have an A, K or Q since I raised pre.
Just wondering if you really "never" bluff that type of flop or if you don't consider continuation betting a bluff? Seems to me it is if you've missed the flop.
Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:16 pm GMT by supafrey
On "bluffing" (god i hate that word), look for my previous posts about continuation bets and analyzing flop texture. Snoo also had a good summary of flop texture and subsequent posts of mine concerning how i play hands "street by street" often included ones where I play despite having a worse hand. Look through those if you want.
| Quote: | The first is not doing it too much. If you bet/raise every other hand, theres no way you have the cards, so sometimes you must be bluffing.
Bluffing "a lot" or "a little" are subjective. Bluffing more lets us get away with bigger value bets from our made hands.. a balance is individual preference
The second thing to consider is the amount of players you're trying to bluff. I may bluff one player, maybe even two, But never more.
There is absolutely no logic behind this other than "well there's a lot of people so they'll probably call more of the times"... This is completely the wrong way to think about poker. This is no different than the distinction between "winning a lot of pots" and "winning a lot of money".
The third thing i consider is the texture of the flop. I would never try a bluff if the flop included two cards Queen or higher, I would never bluff on a flop with an Ace and I would certainly never try to bluff on a flop which had two of the same cards.
Flop texture is important, but the distinctions provided here are arbitrary and have no logic behind them. I'm also curious whether continuation bets are being included in our working definition of bluffing, because then the "two cards queen or up" rule would be absolutely horrible.
I also like to know a little something about the player I'm trying to bluff. For example-how likely is he to throw away his hand to a raise? Or How much do i need to raise to scare them off? Or will they fold at all.
Good point, but really hard to figure out
You also need to consider the position of yourself and betting patterns of the other guy. If they call a large pre-flop raise, will they be scared from a raise on the flop? Maybe, but maybe not.
Again, a lot of talking without saying much ^_^
I guess you're not showing your cards when you do bluff? I'm ten times more likely to call your next bet with a week hand if i know you've previously bluffed.As a bluffer, make sure you understand the differences between "the cards you've had" and the cards they've SEEN you have... |
Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:56 pm GMT by exit music
My favorite bluffs are the "scare card" bluffs, river bets after a 4th suited card falls, or a 4ths str8 card falls. In these situations you are only going to get called by teh nuts. Although it looks pretty silly when you bet and get called down by a nut flush/quads and are forced to show your lousy Q-10.
Basically you reaaaaaaally just want to look for situations where:
-the pot is worth winning (in a tournament this is basically any pot)
-your opponent would have a really hard time calling you without at least top pair
-your plays on every street look like you have the hand you are representing
My second love is when I know without doubt that my opponent was on a missed draw, in these situations I love the triple-barrel-bluff. Nothing feels better than betting every street than flipping over (or mucking) 6-7 while raking a nice pot. This is more of a cash game move and you really don't want to do it against people who are liable to semi-bluff all-in.
Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:02 pm GMT by jimmer
| efram wrote: |
If you raised pre-flop, say with 88, or suited connectors, say 1 caller and flop is something like you suggest above. Wouldn't a continuation bet be appropriate some of the time, even if you missed the flop? |
Yeah, you're totally right. I use this a lot aswell. However as i originally suggested, it does depend on the info you have on the other player and the betting patterns previously etc.
(It also depends on your table image-if you do this regularly, it's only a matter of time until someone comes over the top and raises)
Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:59 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Texture has been mention. Pot odds and opponent is the other key-words to bluffing IMHO.
Unless you are semi-bluffing, overbetting big on bluffs is often one of the worst plays you can make in NL Hold'Em even if your opponent folds. Don't be results oriented. In tournaments this isn't necessarily true due to the special nature of chip EV.
Pot odds is often forgotten because when you bluff you are essentially laying not only the odds for your opponent, but also the odds for yourself.
For opponents I like to bluff LAGs and nits mostly.
Lastly, the bluffing itself doesn't have to be +EV for the bluffing to have a +EV effect on your game. For a Supafreyian playing style, I would _guess_ getting called when strong is probably the greatest benefit of jamming bluffs.
A strong tight player I think can benefit more directly from the bluffing itself, but he probably won't get any more value from his strong holdings from it.
Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:32 pm GMT by MasterMike
Yea that helps a lot, I guess I thought of it too methodically when i won a pot instead of taking a more case by case approach. Thanks for all the posts and ill try to keep them all in mind.
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